Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

danluu.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 310 posts

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#281

Post by faddat »

SixSigma wrote: post #273
el_benhameen wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind if I ask where you went and whether you found it valuable (in terms of both knowledge gained and screens passed)?

I'm doing a degree in Supply Chain Management focusing on Computational Logistics. I really didn't want to sit through a CS degree either learning stuff I know already or stuff I know won't be much use in industry. So I chose a tangential discipline and am enjoying it thoroughly, being a bridge between Operations and IT provides real value to an organisation.

Blended professionals FTW, (almost) every time.

(not speaking to parent poster, but instead generally) Were you a foolish humanities student when you got your bachelors? Worse, did you take it seriously and actually learn something? Great! Now study a technical discipline and blend away. IT is increasing the depth breadth and profitability of these blends daily.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#282

Post by faddat »

JamesBarney wrote: post #216
goostavos wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Probably universities are dumbing down requirements for $$$. I 100% believe this is true. When I was in college it was pretty staggering to see my fellow classmates receive passing grades and get shoveled through the programs despite never grasping the basic fundamentals of CS. These were people who, at the end of CS 101, still couldn't tell you the difference between a string and an int, who after CS 202 _still_ co…

I don't think its that universities are dumbing it down for $$$. It's that they are teaching and testing on skills that are not related to 99% of software development. I went to University of Texas, and managed to do really well on all the tests and projects without learning how to code. But that wasn't because anything was easy. There were a lot of very tough math, and logic classes that some of my class mates who h…

I'm of the opinion that it's both problems in many ploaces.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#283

Post by faddat »

Yes.

Tier 1: Those who solely re-implement. You can do a lot copying and pasting. It's just not worth as much money. Tier 2: Those who re-implement while creating anew, typically in specialized areas or occasionally very well over a wide range of tasks.

Note the importance of re-implementation to both job tiers.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#284

Post by el_benhameen »

faddat wrote: post #281
SixSigma wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm doing a degree in Supply Chain Management focusing on Computational Logistics. I really didn't want to sit through a CS degree either learning stuff I know already or stuff I know won't be much use in industry. So I chose a tangential discipline and am enjoying it thoroughly, being a bridge between Operations and IT provides real value to an organisation.

Blended professionals FTW, (almost) every time. (not speaking to parent poster, but instead generally) Were you a foolish humanities student when you got your bachelors? Worse, did you take it seriously and actually learn something? Great! Now study a technical discipline and blend away. IT is increasing the depth breadth and profitability of these blends daily.

> Were you a foolish humanities student when you got your bachelors?

Yes :\

> Worse, did you take it seriously and actually learn something?

Yes :(

> Great! Now study a technical discipline and blend away.

This is a much better perspective than my usual one. Thanks!

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#285

Post by faddat »

Yes.

Tier 1: Those who solely re-implement. You can do a lot copying and pasting. It's just not worth as much money.

Tier 2: Those who re-implement while creating anew, typically in specialized areas or occasionally very well over a wide range of tasks.

Note the importance of re-implementation to both job tiers.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#286

Post by ryuker16 »

brogrammernot wrote: post #193
Bartweiss wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've held this basic theory for a while, and it seems to explain a lot of things about the state of software engineering. Most visibly, there's a wild disagreement about whether we have too many programmers, or not enough. Big tech companies consistently say that they struggle to find programmers, while contrarians at places like The Atlantic love writing pieces about how we're education way more programmers than we…

I think you hit the nail on the head. There isn't really a need for a lot of companies to hire a CS degree. Wordpress management? You can hire a Jr PHP developer and be fine. They don't teach PHP in school. Need someone to manage your non e-commerce website? Web Developer. Again, not something they seem to teach CS majors but the title could say Web Developer or Front End Engineer When I took a glance at the job mark…

The backend of sites like weebly or Shopify are kinda limited....and peeps who earn a ton of money on those sites have all sorts of ideas on how they could make more(usually need some extended back end work or at least buying a pricey add-on).

Let's seperate tech companies with an e-commerce side and straight up traditional vendors leveraging the internet to increase sales. Backend engineers are critical in the former and very useful mainly to those who have specific needs in ecommerce(many vendors don't even have a clue where to even start). Usually they just outsource the whole project to a third party web dev/design firm or some I.T. guy in-house.

It's worth noting, many older business folks are truly clueless about ecommerce....I tell every client to start with ebay or amazon or etsy but they insist a pot of gold awaits when their website goes live. THey'll need some type of web related worker(design, developer, etc.).

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#287

Post by ryuker16 »

SixSigma wrote: post #273
el_benhameen wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind if I ask where you went and whether you found it valuable (in terms of both knowledge gained and screens passed)?

I'm doing a degree in Supply Chain Management focusing on Computational Logistics. I really didn't want to sit through a CS degree either learning stuff I know already or stuff I know won't be much use in industry. So I chose a tangential discipline and am enjoying it thoroughly, being a bridge between Operations and IT provides real value to an organisation.

Make sure you pile on the private software projects: without the CS degree, they're gonna want either experience or some proof you can code.

Ironically, plenty of tech departments hire guys who are skilled first rather than having some intrinsic interest in the area they program for. Believe me, some old school companies will hire a CS grad who couldn't spell supply chain over you in a heart beat.

Maybe it's different outside the bay area, but it almost never comes up in interviews much about my passion/prior work experience for _____ they build. Reminds me of a guy who went to work for Tesla expecting a bunch of people pumped to expand green energy only to find guys who couldn't care less: they were hired on technical acumen first, enthusiasm for environmentalism last.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#288

Post by __derek__ »

wnevets wrote: post #229
goostavos wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Probably universities are dumbing down requirements for $$$. I 100% believe this is true. When I was in college it was pretty staggering to see my fellow classmates receive passing grades and get shoveled through the programs despite never grasping the basic fundamentals of CS. These were people who, at the end of CS 101, still couldn't tell you the difference between a string and an int, who after CS 202 _still_ co…

>It seems true even for the higher tier degrees too. It seems even a masters degree isn't a good indicator. In the past year alone I've watched several guys with masters enter and then promptly leave our startup due to having just absolutely no idea how to write software. :( is this a problem with degrees or the interview process? How did they get the job without ever proving they knew anything about software?

Well, it's a problem with the degree as a signaling device and a problem with the interview process if it repeatedly produces false negatives of a similar type.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#289

Post by ryuker16 »

henrik_w wrote: post #58
charlesdm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you enjoy something, it's much easier to put a lot of time in to figure it out. For example, I became a software entrepreneur about five years ago making money from my own projects. Dealing with a lot of business related "work", I actually discovered I also really like law, in particular tax law. A friend of mine was a pretty good lawyer (hung up his hat to do more entrepreneurial stuff) and I occasionally a…

I think the question of whether anybody can get good at programming is very interesting. I often hear "anybody can do it, but you can only become really good if you enjoy it". So then the question is: why do you enjoy something? Are we born that way, or is it something we do? (I don't know what the answer is) Edit: also, it is interesting to replace "programmer" with "math professor". Can anybody become a good math p…

Some subjects aren't really fun until your good at it though. I used to hate it until I forced to do it and found it was fun after I got the basics down pat.

When I think of somebody who enjoys programing, they usually have a goal or task to compel them. Just solving random CS questions and math is pretty boring to the majority of folks.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#290

Post by ryuker16 »

Amezarak wrote: post #55
jasode wrote: post #10

If there's a pronounced bimodal distribution, it seems like the biggest driver of it would be the lumping of various programmer specialties into one giant bucket. It seems like the 2 sub-buckets would be: 1) $100k or less: backoffice programmers where software itself is not the product sold. Also known as enterprisey/LOB/CRUD developers working outside Silicon Valley. (E.g. programmer working on mortgage servicing so…

I really think it's location, location, location, not necessarily whether or not the software is the product. I've worked for consulting companies, product companies, and right now I work for a sort-of back-office organization. The best I've been able to do, despite several years of experience, good references, inside connections, a graduate degree, and being pretty (I think, anyway) personable is...75k. And I don't…

IDK, I'm calling horse on that.

I'm a self taught developer who have roughly 1 year exp. and moved to Tennessee(40th poorest state in the union, ultra low cost of living) for a software gig last year. I'm black, 30 year old male, and have a resume with more job/career hopping than a con-artist.

I'm not really that great at programming(got fired after 6 months!).....first offer(I took it) was low ball....at 55k!! Next job I took over paid me and offered $92k with zero negotiation to lower it: All within one year.

I've worked prior tech jobs offering $25k-40k and they were usually some unholy mash up of lite programming and I.T. help desk/system admin roles.

From talking to companies, the non-sexy locations have to pay up the ass and fly in talent for open source. The .Net guys around me make bank too.

If you have several years of programming experience and can only get $75k, I wonder if you program in VB or some obscure academic language....I usually have to argue with recruiters to lower their pay requests per hour...in the south.

Post reply on HN