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A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

thetimes.co.uk

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Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#281

Post by maxlybbert »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #279
maxlybbert wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In practice yes, but not in theory, which is an important distinction. Communism is an economic system that falls apart in practice because of greed. An economic system that fails to account for greed is not good, even in theory.

If someone said "let's go communist", you would have to argue with them why it was a bad idea. A reasonable proposition that turns out not to be a good idea. If someone said "let's kill the Jews", you would probably slowly and carefully walk away from that person because they were nuts. An unreasonable proposition that you probably don't want to bother arguing against (because what kind of person would even say that?…

When I hear that something "works in theory," I understand that to mean "if you oversimplify a little, this would work well." "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice; in practice there is."

But it's only valid if you oversimplify a little. Starting with "first, forget everything you know about human nature" goes too far.

I don't think of "works in theory" as shorthand for "doesn't have internal contradictions" or "sounds reasonable if you forget everything you know about human nature."

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#282

Post by im3w1l »

nl wrote: post #275
im3w1l wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are they saying then? Because to me it really looks like he is saying that CIA did something wrong by interfering and what happened afterwards just followed necessarily from that. And that all blame lies with the CIA.

They are relaying the fact that bin Laden used US intervention as a reason for his actions. There was no implied justification in that statement, just a statement of fact.

If you cite someone without any context to indicate the contrary, it means

    * You hold the same position yourself.
    * You think we should take So-and-so's word for it.
I find your explanation of "just telling a random anecdote" unconvincing.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#283

Post by im3w1l »

cm3 wrote: post #5

The CIA is the reason for most of the unstable regions and it's hard to understand how after messing with other places and making it worse for everybody but weapons manufacturers, they're still doing the same thing over and over. Previously it was the fight against Communism, now Islam, I wonder what it will be in 2020. Middle-east, Asia, South America, all are right to be very angry with the CIA, but turn it into a…

CIA was 110% right to oppose "Communist" regimes such as the Soviet's and China's. Stalins Soviet and Mao's China were really fucked up. I don't know the full story of the Latin American ones though.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#284

Post by nl »

im3w1l wrote: post #282
nl wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are relaying the fact that bin Laden used US intervention as a reason for his actions. There was no implied justification in that statement, just a statement of fact.

If you cite someone without any context to indicate the contrary, it means * You hold the same position yourself. * You think we should take So-and-so's word for it. I find your explanation of "just telling a random anecdote" unconvincing.

I think you may want to reconsider this idea. It's pretty common to quote someone in the context of discussing their actions, because it helps explain why they acted in that way.

In the context of the CIA's actions, it is completely reasonable to point out that murderous barbarians like bin Laden use those actions to justify their actions, especially since that justification has proved to be influential in motivating enemies of the US.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#285

Post by _nedR »

mrslave wrote: post #85

In the interest of some context: Mandela was a communist and a terrorist. While a "political prisoner" he was offered freedom as soon as he would publicly renounce violent protest (i.e. terrorism) and he persistently refused to do so. His second wife, Winnie, enjoyed the necklacing opponents. So nice people all round.

Maybe we should redo all the text books to accurately reflect the fact (by the definition you have given) that George Washington and the founding fathers of the US were terrorists.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#286

Post by _nedR »

thomasahle wrote: post #34

I think it's interesting how the CIA's goal seems to be more or less "maintaining the status quo" in the global power struggle. This is obviously a useful thing to have, but if it gets too strong, how can we ever have the positive revolutions that have given us things like democracy?

Not really. They have repeatedly sought overthrow of numerous governments in the past (including democratic, communist and dictatorial). Not really maintaining the status quo.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#287

Post by fanf2 »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #167
enoch_r wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The WTO and WTCs have similar names, but are not otherwise related to each other.

TIL. Thanks. So if it wasn't the headquarters for the WTO, what activity was taking place at the WTC?

There are World Trade Centres in lots of cities, affiliated with the WTC association. They are named after the NYC WTC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Centers_Associatio...

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#288

Post by thomasahle »

_nedR wrote: post #286
thomasahle wrote: post #34

I think it's interesting how the CIA's goal seems to be more or less "maintaining the status quo" in the global power struggle. This is obviously a useful thing to have, but if it gets too strong, how can we ever have the positive revolutions that have given us things like democracy?

Not really. They have repeatedly sought overthrow of numerous governments in the past (including democratic, communist and dictatorial). Not really maintaining the status quo.

Mostly relative young governments though, no? Governments that were trying something too radical, or were positioned too far from the established way of doing things.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#289

Post by aagha »

cm3 wrote: post #5

The CIA is the reason for most of the unstable regions and it's hard to understand how after messing with other places and making it worse for everybody but weapons manufacturers, they're still doing the same thing over and over. Previously it was the fight against Communism, now Islam, I wonder what it will be in 2020. Middle-east, Asia, South America, all are right to be very angry with the CIA, but turn it into a…

China seems to be prepping for the eventuality that it's going to be in the CIA's cross-hairs.

See:

China Military Spending by year https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://upload.wikimedi...

Photos reveal growth of Chinese military bases in South China Sea http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/13/politics/china-military-south-...

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#290

Post by aagha »

imglorp wrote: post #93
kangar00 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CIA's policy is probably controlled by someone else, and that's where changes need to be made because I like to think they don't come up with the stuff on their own. Beyond you liking to think that, what evidence do you have that the CIA's policy is controlled by anyone other than the CIA's Deputy Director who commands internal operations, and its Director, who reports to the director of National Intelligence as we…

There are congressional intelligence oversight committees, who I'd like to think are aware of these things. More likely, there's a little golf club agreement now and then between some corporation or lobbying group and government agencies. For example, if you guys can help us with a little information and maybe a teensy overthrow, we'll give you some better terms on that spy sat you wanted.

If you haven't already, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man by John Perkins is a very good read.
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