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Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

bbc.com

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Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#281

Post by vidarh »

aninhumer wrote: post #149
KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, when you think of it, maybe it's better to legalize stealing than establishing a government agency in charge of equitable redistribution. I would imagine stealing would work more efficiently and more fairly. (You see a problem and you say: Hey, let's establish a government agency to solve that problem. Now you have two problems.)

Am I missing some sarcasm here? Legalising stealing is basically abolishing property rights.

No jurisdiction on earth enforce property rights as absolute and inviolable. There are tons of exceptions everywhere, because every society on earth recognizes that there are situations where the needs of individuals or society as a whole are more important than individual property rights. This is just one more exception.

Further, it is an exception based on a principle that has historical roots that pre-dates every modern legal system. It is totally unsurprising that some of them have codified principles that can be used in this manner. Especially given that e.g. the principle of necessity in many jurisdictions can be used to justify far worse abrogations of property right than petty theft.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#282

Post by pka »

protomyth wrote: post #259
noir_lord wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This whole "shades of grey" leads to the blackness that destroys people and civilizations. I'd argue that seeing the world in black and white is what destroys people and civilisations rather more. Many of the worst abuses of history have come from black and white thinking (people with black skin are not people, jews are not people, people without my political beliefs are not people).

> Many of the worst abuses of history have come from black and white thinking (people with black skin are not people, jews are not people, people without my political beliefs are not people). That's a crap argument, and has nothing to do with morality that's base racism and can be just as easily phrased as some shades of grey. I'm getting sick of people twisting what people say into some racial thing when we are talk…

Trying to force your morals on other people (by claiming they are absolute) makes the world a worse place.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#283

Post by aninhumer »

gnaritas wrote: post #208
aninhumer wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I missing some sarcasm here? Legalising stealing is basically abolishing property rights.

And just out of curiosity, how far exactly do you think property rights should go? Is your right to own something more important than another persons right to life? Property rights are a social construct granted to you by society at large, they don't have to be and are not absolute.

Oh I absolutely agree. Indeed, I often make a point of arguing against libertarians who try to take property rights as a moral prior, and I'm highly amused that so many people are now making the same argument against me...

But if we're going to limit property rights, we should do so systematically by redistribution, not by allowing ad hoc violations. Predictability is the most important economic benefit of the rule of law.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#284

Post by homogeneous »

RodericDay wrote: post #246
hueving wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discursive ad hominem, yawn. Discuss the implications of theft being okay if you are hungry, not the background of the person who suggested they disagree with that notion.

> Discursive ad hominem, yawn. What kind of environment do you partake in discourse in that this kind of condescending contribution is acceptable? It sounds like you're taking your cues from the Comic Guy from The Simpsons. "Tu quoque? yawn ".

The "yawn" is a bit flippant, but I don't see why it's condescending, he's absolutely correct. Your comic book guy reference seems to suggest that you think he's using big words to sound smart or something, but it seems like a pretty cogent response to a post that completely skips over the substance of the topic at hand and parades around unqualified assumptions about the poster as an argument.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#285

Post by celticninja »

VLM wrote: post #224
celticninja wrote: post #5

Seems reasonable. Not like he was nicking razor blades and booze just some necessities. Shame it had to go so far but hopefully it will prevent similar court action or arrests in future.

There are four slippery slope arguments 1) Originally the law exists so if you cut your finger you won't go to jail for "stealing" a bandaid from the first aid cabinet or other weird trivialities. I had a bad reaction to some taco bell and "stole" an entire roll of toilet paper in the bathroom by flushing it. For unusual situations not as a way of life to eat three meals a day. 2) Another intent is very short term su…

Lots of words and very little content.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#286

Post by School-Cotton »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #253
School-Cotton wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. There is no such rule in the U.S., although a lot of people mistakenly assume there is one. So I thought you might just be mistaken. I'm not sure whether the law in Italy is more similar to the U.S., or to Finland.

> There is no such rule in the U.S., although a lot of people mistakenly assume there is one. There certainly is such a law. It's not something to be proud of. > In US law, public accommodations are generally defined as facilities, both public and private, used by the public. Examples include retail stores > Under United States federal law, public accommodations must be accessible to the handicapped and may not discr…

What? This is exactly what I said. "race, color, religion, or national origin" is a short whitelist of protected classes, which "homeless" and "poor" are not on.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#288

Post by pka »

zo1 wrote: post #250
vidarh wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is black and white That you believe this makes it absolutely impossible for me to think you're not in a privileged position. > The whole point of government social programs is to provide for survival. There are organizations that provide and places to go. Great when you know where to go, and they work as they should. They are not perfect. And people are not perfect. Especially not when starving.

The problem with peddling guilt is that not everyone subscribes to it. I pay taxes, and I expect the needy and the poor and the sick and the hungry to be taken care of. If anyone should feel guilty, it should be the government leaders and the people that don't hold them accountable for the duties there are tasked with performing. I think stealing is wrong, no matter the situation and desperation. However, I also beli…

So you would never steal, no matter the situation?

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#289

Post by vidarh »

zo1 wrote: post #250
vidarh wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is black and white That you believe this makes it absolutely impossible for me to think you're not in a privileged position. > The whole point of government social programs is to provide for survival. There are organizations that provide and places to go. Great when you know where to go, and they work as they should. They are not perfect. And people are not perfect. Especially not when starving.

The problem with peddling guilt is that not everyone subscribes to it. I pay taxes, and I expect the needy and the poor and the sick and the hungry to be taken care of. If anyone should feel guilty, it should be the government leaders and the people that don't hold them accountable for the duties there are tasked with performing. I think stealing is wrong, no matter the situation and desperation. However, I also beli…

That you expect them to be taken care of does not help those who are starving. Consider legal decisions like this an incentive to push for a government that actually does this.

> I think stealing is wrong, no matter the situation and desperation.

So you put property rights above the life of someone else?

Personally I find such an attitude incredibly offensive.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#290

Post by kenko »

stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

So compassionate and empathetic that you're concerned about people abusing this because of the subjectivity of hunger!
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