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Steve Miller: The Whole Music Industry Is Fuckin' Gangsters and Crooks

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Re: Steve Miller: The Whole Music Industry Is Fuckin' Gangsters and Crooks

#281

Post by williamcotton »

MikeNomad wrote: post #257
williamcotton wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to convince anyone of anything on HackerNews. I'm up against the entire California Ideology on this forum. Every time you guys go to a conference or talk with a coworker or your boss this philosophy is being reinforced. I can't do shit but sit here and throw darts. It's really the only effective course of action. Sorry if it stings a little. If you actually are interested, I've previously said everythin…

While I find your vitriol refreshing, I would suggest a change in your reading list. For those that want to examine the economics of IP vs. The Record Business, I would first read Fredric Dannen's Hit Men.

Yup, I've read it. Even at it's most grotesque the record labels were still writing checks to artists. That the artists never saw another dime, well, it's a shame they didn't have better legal representation and that there weren't standardized contracts that gave artists better leverage. You can blame this mainly on the cost and access to legal professionals. As we move to cheaper more user friendly types of digital contracts I imagine this will make these types of contract negotiations much more equitable and just.

It is still better than today where there are no advances and really no way to ever recoup the production costs unless you completely ignore digital and go back to selling vinyl... which is what most artists are doing.

In the next few years we're going to see a wholesale abandonment of digital and social media from musicians because everyone is finally going to figure out that what Silicon Valley has been building for the last decade is an economic desert. Who gives a crap if you're reaching an audience that doesn't come to your shows and doesn't buy any of your wares?

Re: Steve Miller: The Whole Music Industry Is Fuckin' Gangsters and Crooks

#282

Post by untog »

WalterBright wrote: post #277
brandall10 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They only brought in session musicians for instruments they could not play (ie. orchestral pieces). They never brought in session musicians to play their own pieces. All guitar, drum, bass, piano, etc parts were played by the members of the band and on very few occasions piano pieces by George Martin. Eric Clapton was not a "session musician", he was doing an uncredited solo for his best friend George Harrison's song…

If he was paid for it, he was technically a session musician. The fact that he was uncredited shows he was never a band member. George Martin did a lot more than just play a few piano bits - he had a lot of creative input. Here's what "The Beatles" by Spitz has to say about it: "Two weeks later, on his way to the Studio from Sussex, scheduled to give the song another shot, he was explaining to Eric Clapton how someth…

> If he was paid for it, he was technically a session musician.

Technically, sure. But it's pretty obvious that this situation is not what anyone is talking about here.

Re: Steve Miller: The Whole Music Industry Is Fuckin' Gangsters and Crooks

#284

Post by williamcotton »

williamcotton wrote: post #281
MikeNomad wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I find your vitriol refreshing, I would suggest a change in your reading list. For those that want to examine the economics of IP vs. The Record Business, I would first read Fredric Dannen's Hit Men.

Yup, I've read it. Even at it's most grotesque the record labels were still writing checks to artists. That the artists never saw another dime, well, it's a shame they didn't have better legal representation and that there weren't standardized contracts that gave artists better leverage. You can blame this mainly on the cost and access to legal professionals. As we move to cheaper more user friendly types of digital…

THE DOWNVOTES ONLY MAKE ME STRONGER!!!!

Re: Steve Miller: The Whole Music Industry Is Fuckin' Gangsters and Crooks

#285

Post by ancientworldnow »

dudifordMann wrote: post #24
matchagaucho wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Super Artist" level of entertainment requires an army to support marketing, legal issues, mechanical licensing, PR, tours, accountants, video production, publishing... Only the big labels are prepared to provide this support.

Great point, even if an artist had 'n' skilled people to facilitate those roles and produce the needed deliverables, what would happen to those people when the artist becomes unpopular? so even if there is no way around having these established entities for the purpose of essentially allowing the artist to create, then is it a matter of reform? which really means not signing to big labels in the hopes that if enough…

A lot of my work is in music videos. I've got hundreds of millions of views on vevo and even a VMA winning video under my belt. There is almost no one in this industry who works for a single artist. This week, for example, I've got a video coming out from a big artist from a major label, a brand new band a major label decided will be cool, a major YouTube star (top 10 YouTube artist), a tiny artist on a tiny label, and a totally unsigned rapper (busy week). You'd be surprised how close the paychecks for a lot of these are.

Point is all of us work with dozens or hundreds of artists because outside of maybe ten mega artists you can't depend on a single "brand" to support you. Granted this applies to video more than other areas, but even agents and managers will have a few to several artists they work with.

Re: Steve Miller: The Whole Music Industry Is Fuckin' Gangsters and Crooks

#286

Post by ancientworldnow »

jar3624 wrote: post #62

I really hope Ethereum takes off. I think this will go a long way of cutting out the middle men between the customer and "content maker". I even hear all the code that runs on Ethereum is open source which makes it even more transparent/turstworthy. Its the cure to capitalism ! hopefully See http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/imogen-heap-shows-how-music-smart-c...

It's not a money problem, it's a marketing one. I work alongside the music industry in the code world (won a VMA along the way) and see how labels really work. The problem isn't so much about album sales and streaming money going straight to the creator (though not enough does by a long shot) but rather that if you're not signed to a label and have access to their marketing engine then no one will ever hear your music.

There are plenty of places like bandcamp where you can find great music and buy it directly from the artist with them taking most of the cut, but the numbers of people buying are so low it doesn't matter. With labels, I've literally watched them take a nobody band and decide they're going to be the next thing. They finish their album, label foots the bill for a big music video, PR team call$ pitchfork or world star or whatever site is genre appropriate, band gets a frontpage feature, radio play start$, and next thing you know album sales are way up, tour tickets are sold out and label made bank.

The problem is discovery and curation and ethereum doesn't fix that.

Re: Steve Miller: The Whole Music Industry Is Fuckin' Gangsters and Crooks

#287

Post by SeanLuke »

riprowan wrote: post #151
Dwolb wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a side note, I saw the founder of Pandora speak and he said their mission is to create a middle class for musicians by making it easier to discover, listen, and support non-hit artists. I'm not sure if their plan had a broader strategy, but I felt the vision was at least admirable due to its mission beyond just firm profits.

As a non-hit artist, married to a non-hit artist, and who's produced a bevy of non-hit artists, I can say that roughly none of a non-hit artist's income is likely to come from Pandora / Pandora discovery. At $0.0001/stream typical, Pandora itself cannot ever add up to meaningful income for a non-hit artist. Most of the income for the non-hit artist will come from that core group of committed fans who buy everything t…

> (Update: I just found a bit a data that states that Pandora accounts for ~10% of new music discovery which is a lot better than I would have guessed.)

This sounds like a version of Russell and Norvig's Mengitis question. The probability you have a stiff neck if you have meningitis is 70%. But what is the probability that you have meningitis if you have a stiff neck? Keep in mind that Meningitis is 1/50,000 cases but stiff necks are 1/100 cases. Answer: 0.14%, quite small.

Similarly, the probability that you are on Pandora if you are discovered is 1/10. But what is the probability that you are discovered if you're on Pandora? Likely very, very, very small.

Re: Steve Miller: The Whole Music Industry Is Fuckin' Gangsters and Crooks

#288

Post by baldfat »

WalterBright wrote: post #237
copperx wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one big reason why bands/singers/artists need labels. They're not able to turn the lyrics on the back of a napkin into a credible album on their own. You're incredibly mistaken. Yes, the Backstreet Boys/One Direction were exactly what you are describing, as are any major acts. But bands outside "mainstream" music are anything but pretty faces. One can write credible music without production. See: Pixies, Th…

> as are any major acts Exactly my point. To become a major act (i.e. make money) artists need lots of artistic help. I know this is a brutal thing to say, but if you want to get a band out of obscurity, you're going to need help. Even Michael Jackson had Quincy Jones help him achieve his breakout album (Off The Wall) and was smart enough to go get the artistic help he needed. And Michael Jackson was one of those inc…

I hate to say it but Adele is a good example of an independent artist making her way.

PS Don't let my oldest daughter know this I HATE Adele Happy Music and Sad Lyrics crap!!!!

Re: Steve Miller: The Whole Music Industry Is Fuckin' Gangsters and Crooks

#289

Post by voltagex_ »

specialist wrote: post #176
riprowan wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-hit artist, married to a non-hit artist, and who's produced a bevy of non-hit artists, I can say that roughly none of a non-hit artist's income is likely to come from Pandora / Pandora discovery. At $0.0001/stream typical, Pandora itself cannot ever add up to meaningful income for a non-hit artist. Most of the income for the non-hit artist will come from that core group of committed fans who buy everything t…

As a discovery tool Pandora's value is debatable. Curation works better than recommenders. To my great surprise, I continue to discover new acts, music thru the radio. Just like when I was kid. KBCS.fm and KEXP.org have great speciality shows. They also do a good job of posting their play lists, streaming archives, linking to artists, promoting upcoming shows, etc. I've rarely discovered new stuff from a recommender…

I've had the opposite experience from you. I don't listen to much broadcast radio any more. I used to use Last.FM's recommender to find new bands to listen to, now I just use Spotify - after a few weeks the "Discover Weekly" playlist is spot on, even with a very eclectic taste in music (http://www.last.fm/user/voltagex/library/tracks?date_preset=...). I've discovered entire genres via Spotify and last.fm and gone to several live events that I wouldn't have even known about without services like these.

Re: Steve Miller: The Whole Music Industry Is Fuckin' Gangsters and Crooks

#290

Post by vogt »

baldfat wrote: post #23

I owned a SMALL Record Label and Studio. I was (still?) good at picking out talent in bands. The Whole Industry Sucks I had two bands that ended up on Major Labels and Toured the World. I met a kid on the street wearing one of my Bands shirts and struck up a conversation. They still love the band 10 years later. These guys per person made at the TOP $7,000 in profit after expenses were paid. One band did a KickStarte…

I have to know, simply because you're the only one I've known who has mentioned Zao on HN: which small record label did you own?
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