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What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

nytimes.com

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Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#281

Post by rewqfdsa »

icanhackit wrote: post #279
natvod wrote: post #76

Ok so I'm a girl who codes/programs and I'm my take on the issues she raised: Stereotypes about STEM fields putting girls off I can only talk about my own experience but I saw very few negative stereotypes about STEM fields growing up. Definitely not enough to put off girls. However, while I did start coding at a young age, I didn't apply my skill to a work/business purpose until my twenties. Why? I think this issue…

Great post though I'd like to add some thoughts to this bit: the professional/business world as a whole rewards and values masculine traits (competitiveness, talking highly of yourself and accomplishments, etc.) I'd argue those are better classified as extroverted traits rather than masculine traits. Believe me, there are more than a few males that suffer from this being the dominant culture in business (or anywhere)…

> I'd say the next big battle in workplace equality is going to focus on treating introversion fairly.

What do you think such an effort would look like? One problem is that in big companies, it's frequently not enough to do good work. To get recognition, you have to _advertise_ that you're doing good work.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#282

Post by wtbob »

patio11 wrote: post #165
wtbob wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did he actually say something terrible, or did he just commit a thoughtcrime in public? In this sort of discussion, one never knows. I didn't see the original comment, so I have no idea. But, given the context of this discussion, I am concerned that there is a decent possibility that he wrote something not outrageous, but simply contrary to the current received wisdom of young Bay Area Californians.

You can see the comment by turning on show dead in your profile. I'll save you the trouble: it adds nothing to the discussion then uses a slur.

Ah, I didn't know that it was possible to show deleted posts (its been awhile since I looked at my preferences, I guess). Judging by the grammar, word choice and username I'd suspect that the author is not a native English-speaker.

I agree that in this case it doesn't really add much to the conversation, although I am a bit more forgiving if the author is indeed not a native English speaker.

I'm going to keep showdead on. There have been a number of cases in which I've seen comments moderated to oblivion where, from the quotes in child comments, I think that they were probably worth reading.

(Amusingly, HN has not let me post this for several hours, since I'm 'posting too fast')

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#283

Post by duaneb »

hackuser wrote: post #268
duaneb wrote: post #251

No matter who you are, applying broad strokes to the industry is going to paint many incorrectly. The idea that there is one factor that "really" keeps women out of tech implies that the other reasons are false. In reality, it is very subjective. I would also have been put off by her experience with pressure to "act like a man" and I'm a man. But, just as anecdotally, I only encountered this once: the cs department o…

> The idea that there is one factor that "really" keeps women out of tech implies that the other reasons are false. There could be a few factors that account for the vast majority.

Sure. But this is still all speculation, and it strikes me as harmful to portray it as a reality.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#284

Post by wtbob »

mst wrote: post #174
wtbob wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did he actually say something terrible, or did he just commit a thoughtcrime in public? In this sort of discussion, one never knows. I didn't see the original comment, so I have no idea. But, given the context of this discussion, I am concerned that there is a decent possibility that he wrote something not outrageous, but simply contrary to the current received wisdom of young Bay Area Californians.

Model/view/misandry et al's continued hatred of HN suggests to me that the moderation approach doesn't punish thoughtcrime qua thoughtcrime, only actually horrible stuff. If you don't believe me, you're welcome to go look, but it's not an experience I'd recommend. (edit: It occurs to me that the last sentence is unclear as to whether I'm referring to showdead or MVM; the answer is 'yes')

What's model/view/misandry? I googled it, but no luck.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#285

Post by bduerst »

mpweiher wrote: post #88
yummyfajitas wrote: post #83

Is it true that there is a "rise of pop-culture portrayals of scientists as white or Asian male geeks"? I've seen a little bit of TV this year - every hacker I saw was female, and most were goths. Doing a google search of "top TV 2014" and looking up the ones that are likely to have a hacker as a character, I discover "Arrow" (female hacker), NCIS (female hacker), 24 (female hacker), Criminal Minds (female hacker), P…

NCIS LA: Female hacker -> cool. Male hacker -> bumbling idiot.

That was probably just the writers trying to use an inverted trope:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InvertedTrope

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#286

Post by rewqfdsa »

wtbob wrote: post #284
mst wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Model/view/misandry et al's continued hatred of HN suggests to me that the moderation approach doesn't punish thoughtcrime qua thoughtcrime, only actually horrible stuff. If you don't believe me, you're welcome to go look, but it's not an experience I'd recommend. (edit: It occurs to me that the last sentence is unclear as to whether I'm referring to showdead or MVM; the answer is 'yes')

What's model/view/misandry? I googled it, but no luck.

He means Model View Culture: [1] https://modelviewculture.com/

I think.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#287

Post by Nickersf »

"To make computer science more attractive to women, we might help young women change how they think about themselves and what’s expected of them. But we might also diversify the images of scientists they see in the media, along with the décor in the classrooms and offices in which they might want to study or work."

No. I don't expect liberal arts and women's studies departments, and the home decorating industry to adapt a more masculine culture. I don't see CS and the tech industry as this uber masculine frat bro jock culture anyways. This is ridiculous. Let people make their own choices instead of dictating how people should act constantly.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#288

Post by duaneb »

muddyrivers wrote: post #274
duaneb wrote: post #251

No matter who you are, applying broad strokes to the industry is going to paint many incorrectly. The idea that there is one factor that "really" keeps women out of tech implies that the other reasons are false. In reality, it is very subjective. I would also have been put off by her experience with pressure to "act like a man" and I'm a man. But, just as anecdotally, I only encountered this once: the cs department o…

I am a software engineer, male, Asian. Somehow I can relate to the article. Although I was always one of the top students in math and science and enrolled the top university, I was both intimidated and kind of disgusted by the culture stereotypes at the beginning of my career. I had self doubts if I would ever become a good software engineer, since I was far from the stereotypes. Sometimes, I was deeply disgusted by…

So—first, empathy, I don't get video games at all.

Second—this strikes me as fairly standard cultural shock. It's one thing to find yourself immersed in a culture, it's quite another to find that you have to immerse yourself in that culture to reach your teammates. This is an experience I have not encountered before; people have surprised me with the lengths they go to ensure a healthy diversity in company culture so that everyone feels like they have an opening to communicate. Why would you NOT want to get to know your teammate? If they have different interests, it's an opportunity, not a problem.

That said.... sometimes you need to be the person to push for the cultural diversity, and unfortunately, that's not going to be easy for most people regardless of sex or industry. I would even imagine non-tech companies actually have a much worse case of this where EVERYONE feels alienated from their coworkers based on my personal experiences.

It's complicated. But monocultures are certainly terrible teamwork oriented groups of people—I think we can all agree with that.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#289

Post by somberi »

natvod wrote: post #76

Ok so I'm a girl who codes/programs and I'm my take on the issues she raised: Stereotypes about STEM fields putting girls off I can only talk about my own experience but I saw very few negative stereotypes about STEM fields growing up. Definitely not enough to put off girls. However, while I did start coding at a young age, I didn't apply my skill to a work/business purpose until my twenties. Why? I think this issue…

Thank you and a great post.

Icanhackit suggested that these present traits are "extrovert" in nature, however there are traits that are feminine that are extrovert as well - communication, team-building, etc.

My wife who is an extrovert and holds a position of corporate importance half-jests about putting a poster in her office that says "I am your manager, not your mom".

Here is an article (well shared by now) that suggests that boards with women members may be good for the business, exactly because they provide a good counter-point to "masculine" traits of aggression and risk-seeking behaviour.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/01/the-effect-o...

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#290

Post by sridca »

howeyc wrote: post #228
paulddraper wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those are different. Those favor females.

You're also not supposed to point out such advantages. You'll be ostracized and placed into "male rights" sub group which has very negative connotations in general society. Tread lightly.

> Tread lightly.

As long as you dispassionately and sensibly point out the injustice being done in the name of justice, what is the problem? The biggest issue now seems to be men not speaking up against their detractors.

On the lighter side:

"Women are constantly patting themselves on the back for how difficult their lives are and no one corrects them because they want to fuck 'em." – Bill Burr https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoJrMaFlxOk

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