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Fired

zachholman.com

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Re: Fired

#271

Post by jghn »

tsotha wrote: post #268
jghn wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the one thing I really don't like about the whole fire fast mentality that is starting to pop up, particularly the extreme examples of "fire for any reason as soon as the person isn't a perfect fit, regardless of overall quality". I'm fine with that, but make sure that I know it's likely coming well in advance. Make sure I understand that I'm not pulling my weight. Make sure I understand that the company is m…

IMO Fire fast is a mistake, even from a purely green-eye shades perspective. It takes time to bring a new employee up to speed, and while they're coming up to speed they need attention from other people who are supposed to be working on their own projects. Beyond that it creates a morale problem. People who work together form social attachments and get upset when a coworker disappears. People who are in no actual dan…

I probably shouldn't have said "the one thing" - I totally agree that I think it is a silly policy and not the right to be doing at all.

I guess I meant "the one thing that bothers me from the perspective of someone who might be fired at any moment" :) - I could survive in a fire fast iff they were open about everything, although I probably wouldn't choose to work there in the first place, if that makes sense.

Re: Fired

#272

Post by dvanduzer »

jghn wrote: post #229
ChuckMcM wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of my own experience as a manager I've never thought that about anyone I have fired.

I think it's less common in the tech world, and as I mentioned it's even less common in the current SV scene. However I'd wager if you asked 100 people what would cause someone to be fired, generally it's that the person was incompetent.

This seems to be another case of the "identification-with-job" problem. And while I agree with Chuck's point that humans should not identify so strongly with their employment, it's clearly the norm. Both self-identification and other-identification: cf. the popular cocktail party question "what do you do?"

Re: Fired

#273

Post by eric_h »

kevando wrote: post #40

Just throwing this out there: I'd pay $40 to hear the real story.

I believe it may have had something to do with a rather dramatic story about github from a while back. The last person who mentioned it in this thread got their comment killed, so I will stop here.

Well, I should add this is pure speculation, I have no actual information about it.

Re: Fired

#274

Post by benfrederickson »

vhodges wrote: post #133
toomuchtodo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree. As a US citizen, I pine for the social safety nets in Canada and Europe. I'm playing the hand I was dealt.

I can't speak to what Europeans have, but as a Canadian I can. It's not all it's cracked up to be. In BC MSP (Medical Services Plan) is $54/Month for an individual and it's mandatory whether you're employed or not. The amount is probably different in other provinces as medical is a provincial concern (and indeed, coverage varies from province to province). Employers usually offer extended medical, covering things lik…

MSP is mandatory - but its tied to how much money you make. Most people here are probably making enough that they are paying the maximum amount (which is $72 for an individual these days), but as a university student I had the same coverage for free.

EI coverage last significantly longer than 15 weeks if you've been working full time in the last year. It depends on the regional unemployment rate - for BC its probably around 36 weeks: http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/ei/types/regular.shtml#lo... .

Re: Fired

#275

Post by baby »

nvarsj wrote: post #233
maxsilver wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From what I'm reading, in the US it seems to be a case that you could loose your job, with no notice at any time for any reason? Yes, exactly. In many states, US employers can terminate an employee at any time, for (almost) any reason, or for no reason at all. It's often called "At-will employment" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment Note that while it technically works both ways, realistically it onl…

> Note that while it technically works both ways, realistically it only works to the employers benefit. The employer is allowed to fire any employee at any time, for no reason, with no recourse. I don't agree at all. In this market it benefits technology workers to be at-will. You can get a great job offer and literally leave your job the next day. This drives salaries up overall and means companies need to work hard…

> You can get a great job offer and literally leave your job the next day

Except who would hire someone like that?

Re: Fired

#276

Post by onewaystreet »

makeitsuckless wrote: post #213
davidu wrote: post #41

There are people who were at OpenDNS in the early days who were incredible, and as we grew, became less and less incredible, largely because the things that made them incredible actually started to be really frustrating as the company grew and they didn't want to change those things. So they had to leave. Usually it was a series of conversations about how the person, their peers, and the company were all unhappy, and…

> people are fired all the time No, they're not. In the Western world, this is mostly an American thing. In most Western countries, there's a major responsibility for the employer to prove there is no other way before getting permission to fire someone. Now there are all kinds of downsides to that, and it's far from ideal especially for start-ups, but I do like the way it doesn't tolerate the immature, irresponsible…

> In most Western countries, there's a major responsibility for the employer to prove there is no other way before getting permission to fire someone.

Which is exactly why there are very few successful tech startups outside of the US.

> But I do like the way it doesn't tolerate the immature, irresponsible and downright immoral behavior towards employees that's regularly on display here on HN and considered "normal".

Don't cry for SV programmers making $130k+ who get fired, they will get a new job within a week. Fire fast also means hire fast (at least while the VC money keeps flowing).

Re: Fired

#277

Post by nowarninglabel »

icefox wrote: post #227
coderintherye wrote: post #7

If nothing else, I'm thankful to Zach for a lot of the guidance he's provided on his blog over the years. When we did a "field trip" to Github thanks to Scott, I shared Zach's quote with the engineers here: "We’re currently at 35 employees and growing, and this approach still works great. But managers love to assign hours for a reason: it gives them the illusion that hours can measure performance. If you don’t go har…

How is Kiva after the Amazon acquisition?

Different Kiva, http://www.kiva.org :)

Re: Fired

#278

Post by aragot »

hoverkraft wrote: post #248
makeitsuckless wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people are fired all the time No, they're not. In the Western world, this is mostly an American thing. In most Western countries, there's a major responsibility for the employer to prove there is no other way before getting permission to fire someone. Now there are all kinds of downsides to that, and it's far from ideal especially for start-ups, but I do like the way it doesn't tolerate the immature, irresponsible…

I have a lot of family in France, and based on what I've heard from them, the flip-side of those kinds of employment protections is that employers become much more reluctant to hire people (especially young people and people considered higher risk based on background, skills, etc.) Possible that this attitude (along with many other factors) contributes to the far less developed startup cultures of many Western Europe…

Spain has a 15-days notice for termination and Luxembourg 1-month, France 3 months for IT jobs (I'm French) and I guess employee protection laws are proportional to those figures. So I wonder whether it's essntially France which is considers the employment contract as a blood pact.

Re: Fired

#279

Post by abalone »

skwirl wrote: post #249
makeitsuckless wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people are fired all the time No, they're not. In the Western world, this is mostly an American thing. In most Western countries, there's a major responsibility for the employer to prove there is no other way before getting permission to fire someone. Now there are all kinds of downsides to that, and it's far from ideal especially for start-ups, but I do like the way it doesn't tolerate the immature, irresponsible…

You're right, it is a very American way of doing business. But you haven't put forward any argument against it, other than basically saying that it makes you feel icky. We have a very individualistic culture in America. It has its positives and negatives. But most of the people here (software developers in America) have greatly benefited from that culture - we have a tremendous amount of opportunity in a field we enj…

> We are the center of the startup world and our big tech companies disproportionately dominate world markets.

You're making a logical leap that this is because of firing people.

Other small factors might include, for example, billions of dollars of U.S. government funding in high tech research, sustained over many decades, the fruits of which are directly transferred to Silicon Valley companies to bring to market.

Incidentally, lots of that core research happens in the academic sector where the tenure system is common. Which makes firing really hard.

Re: Fired

#280

Post by [deleted] »

timjahn wrote: post #189
crpatino wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cut expenses, payoff debt, increase savings... on principle. Then when you see the first early warnings, do the same but twice as hard. I am well on track to pay the mortage in 4 years instead of the standard 20, have probably 6 months of expenses in the bank, plus another 2-3 months of expenses in a different account because the wife has begin to have funny ideas about what to do with the extra cash. (I have already…

How are you paying off the mortgage in 1/5 of the time?

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