Live data from Hacker News

Google Fiber is coming to Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville and Raleigh-Durham

googleblog.blogspot.com

271–280 of 287 posts

Re: Google Fiber is coming to Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville and Raleigh-Durham

#271
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a business plan. It is, but not because they have a plan beyond it, though. Cox/Time-Warner/etc. basically shook down Google for money a couple of years ago. Google backed down and the last-mile ISPs thought they won. Google, of course, was extremely unhappy to painfully discover that there was insufficient competition if the ISP's decided to play dirty and block their ads. So, Google now looks at the ISP's…

If that's the case, it would be more effective to settle on something cheaper, let's say program '100mbit/s to every home' and cover larger area faster. I also think that it has something to do with making major ISPs less aggressive, but there's probably something else, why Google needs 1 Gb/s

Think about this in terms of a startup vs incumbent problem. The newcomer often needs to be 10x better than the incumbent in order to change the customer's habits.

Fiber is just that.

Re: Google Fiber is coming to Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville and Raleigh-Durham

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...access to internet and access to cutting-edge broadband... At the pace technology advances, there's not so much difference between the two. Since companies are still constantly pushing the limits of technology, the majority of the benefits of connectivity come at the higher end of the bandwidth spectrum.

I disagree. Almost all of the "internet as a human right" uses of technology are at the lower end of the bandwidth spectrum: e-mail, job applications, Wikipedia, etc. 95% of what's socially valuable on the internet can be done with HTML 2.0.

95% of what's socially valuable is feeling like an equal -- that means edX videos, Khan Academy, Coursera, YouTube, live streaming, backup software, immersive games, etc.

Re: Google Fiber is coming to Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville and Raleigh-Durham

#274
post #270
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats the kind of idiotic arguments that were put forth during the early progressivist movment. It used to be that anti-competitive meant actually doing something bad, the progressiv transformed it to 'companys who might do something bad in the future'. How about we use common sence and let competition work its way until we actually OBSERVE bad effects instead of condemming a company because they might do something b…

You are right but it's deeper than that. "Anti-competitive" is not even a valid concept. Companies are supposed to do everything they can to beat their competition. That is simply called "being competitive." It's kind of like the word "progressive" as in "the Progressive movement." It's a linguistic deception that started out as a kind of dishonest propoganda.

It's a perfectly valid concept. A company takes action not aimed at succeeding in the market, but instead aimed at damaging their competitors. The direct goal is to reduce the amount of competition in the market, aka being "anti-competitive".

Companies are not supposed to do everything they can to beat their competition. That's closer to a description of organized crime.

Re: Google Fiber is coming to Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville and Raleigh-Durham

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What meaningful competition was there before? What high quality, amazing service did GMail smash? Yahoo Mail and Hotmail were terrible then, and they're still mostly terrible now.

I'm not suggesting that there was meaningful competition before - just that there's no meaningful competition now, contrary to the comment I was replying to which asserted that "the competition got serious".

hmm outlook.com and fastmail looks meaningful to me.

Re: Google Fiber is coming to Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville and Raleigh-Durham

#276
post #78
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny you mention 'rural area' -- my in-laws all live in the wooded section of Troy, IL... total population is like 1,000 people. Anyway, they have Charter cable over there - and for the last decade they have been asking me about 'Getting Netflix' - but with a maximum download speed of 3mbps I kept telling them "It's just not going to work well for you..." 2 months ago Charter bumped them from 3mbps to 50mbps. My fir…

To put 'Getting Netflix' into perspective for you, my home connection is 2 Mbps down, 1 Mbps up and I have no issue watching Netflix steams with good enough quality to be enjoyable. We choose to get this slow connection due to the cost ($15/mo) and see no reason to pay for higher tiers of speed from Time Warner.

TWC also has upgrades planned under their maxx program. My plan was 20/2 and is now 100/10.

Re: Google Fiber is coming to Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville and Raleigh-Durham

#277
post #270
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats the kind of idiotic arguments that were put forth during the early progressivist movment. It used to be that anti-competitive meant actually doing something bad, the progressiv transformed it to 'companys who might do something bad in the future'. How about we use common sence and let competition work its way until we actually OBSERVE bad effects instead of condemming a company because they might do something b…

You are right but it's deeper than that. "Anti-competitive" is not even a valid concept. Companies are supposed to do everything they can to beat their competition. That is simply called "being competitive." It's kind of like the word "progressive" as in "the Progressive movement." It's a linguistic deception that started out as a kind of dishonest propoganda.

> Companies are supposed to do everything they can to beat their competition. That is simply called "being competitive."

Real competition is stabbing your competitors in the face and taking their stuff. We prohibit that because it rewards the wrong kinds of competitors. Prohibitions on anticompetitive conduct are rooted in the same principle.

Re: Google Fiber is coming to Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville and Raleigh-Durham

#278
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is explicitly not what the parent poster was claiming.

Are you really claming that there is not a single accaptable email hoster, even for money anywhere on the internet? Even if there is no good one, there CLEAR are still many, many others that you can use. Edit: Competiton is not defined as same service at same price. All email services compete with each other, gmail did not kill the competition or the market they just offered the best system on one price range. You ar…

> You offered this as a response to somebody saying that google was good for the market, but they clearly were.

Look. If I have a measurably worse email system, and email is a central part of workflow in my industry, then I am not able to compete as well as those who have measurably better email systems.

You could argue that there are equally good email systems, or that there's no possible reason that I could possibly want to not use Google's email system. That would be valid and constructive.

Re: Google Fiber is coming to Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville and Raleigh-Durham

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Almost all of the "internet as a human right" uses of technology are at the lower end of the bandwidth spectrum: e-mail, job applications, Wikipedia, etc. 95% of what's socially valuable on the internet can be done with HTML 2.0.

95% of what's socially valuable is feeling like an equal -- that means edX videos, Khan Academy, Coursera, YouTube, live streaming, backup software, immersive games, etc.

Since when is "feeling like an equal" a basic right? Everyone in my high-school had a car and designer clothing. Should the public subsidize that stuff for poor kids? Note that clothes are a much bigger part of "feeling like an equal" to a typical kid than anything to do with computers.

Games are not socially valuable, they're a diversion. Backup software--it's much cheaper to give everyone a USB drive than build fiber out to them. Finally, the failure of rich media in the educational setting has been profound. Text (and static diagrams) is the most efficient and precise way to convey information.[1] In the 1990's, it was about getting "multimedia" into classrooms, and it was a colossal waste of time and money. The value of online courseware is the lecture notes and exams, which have limited bandwidth demands.

[1] I'll note that HN is about as plain text as you can get, and is a place for serious discussion.

Re: Google Fiber is coming to Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville and Raleigh-Durham

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

95% of what's socially valuable is feeling like an equal -- that means edX videos, Khan Academy, Coursera, YouTube, live streaming, backup software, immersive games, etc.

Since when is "feeling like an equal" a basic right? Everyone in my high-school had a car and designer clothing. Should the public subsidize that stuff for poor kids? Note that clothes are a much bigger part of "feeling like an equal" to a typical kid than anything to do with computers. Games are not socially valuable, they're a diversion. Backup software--it's much cheaper to give everyone a USB drive than build fib…

Edit: added ---> to quotes to make the paragraph separation clearer and clarify some minor points

---> Since when is "feeling like an equal" a basic right?

Since always, because large groups of people not feeling like equals inevitably leads to instability and uprising.

---> Everyone in my high-school had a car and designer clothing. Should the public subsidize that stuff for poor kids?

Yes, in the form of basic income sufficient to feed, clothe, and transport oneself and one's family.

---> Note that clothes are a much bigger part of "feeling like an equal" to a typical kid than anything to do with computers.

We're not just talking about kids, but even kids deserve the basic dignity of not being terrified to walk the halls of their school because they don't have reasonable clothing. The distraction of being strongly disliked by other students can have a profound effect on a kid's outlook for the future and motivation to improve.

---> Games are not socially valuable, they're a diversion.

Games are every bit as socially valuable as any other form of art or entertainment. As just one example of an artistic game, see Braid.

---> Backup software--it's much cheaper to give everyone a USB drive than build fiber out to them.

Give someone a USB drive you back up their files for a day, but give them fiber and you back up their files for a lifetime. Once built, the fiber is good for a very long time and many other uses.

---> Finally, the failure of rich media in the educational setting has been profound.

That's because people who call things "rich media" didn't know what they were doing or how to measure it. They were just jumping onto a buzzword. As a counterexample, Encarta on CD-ROM was quite useful as a tool for education and inspiration.

---> Text (and static diagrams) is the most efficient and precise way to convey information.

It depends on the information. What sound does a penguin make, in text? What does it look like to fly over an island rain forest?

If this is true, why do we still have classrooms at all? Why was video or telephone invented?

---> In the 1990's, it was about getting "multimedia" into classrooms, and it was a colossal waste of time and money.

I'll repeat my earlier mention of buzzwords, and add the benefit of a generation of students having early experience with computers, allowing them to perform better in a modern workplace.

---> The value of online courseware is the lecture notes and exams, which have limited bandwidth demands.

Strongly disagree. I took the very first edX course, MITx 6.002x. 95% of the value was in the excellent lecture videos by Prof. Agarwal, which I could speed up or slow down as needed to maximize understanding. The remaining value came from interactive circuit simulations. It's not just the medium, it's the quality of execution. Excellent videos and interactive software are invaluable and can't be replaced by lecture notes and exams.

  ------------------------------------
But all that said, I'll return to the first paragraph. People need to be connected to society in the way society wants to connect. Because the majority of the price of broadband is in the installation, it makes no sense to install second-class hardware in poorer areas unless you want to create a permanent digital underclass that will eventually drop out of the workforce, drain welfare resources, and eventually, revolt.

Cities already have to provide water, electricity, gas, and sewer services, so the roads will be dug up and the labor expended whether fiber is added to the mix or not.

Post reply on HN