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That “distressed baby" Tim Armstrong blamed for benefit cuts? She’s my daughter

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Re: That “distressed baby" Tim Armstrong blamed for benefit cuts? She’s my daughter

#271
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Can a price be really put on a human life? This is the crux of the problem. You can't really. The interesting thing is that his brother is a physician with very similar training in the UK (they both went to Trinity in Dublin). Does he get $4 million a year? Not by a long shot. Is he hurting for money? No. He has a large house and equally large family, travels all over the world and in general has a wonderful life. G…

All else being equal, would the brother turn down the money if he were given it? Would he turn it down merely and strictly due to the number of zeroes tacked after the first six digits? How would anyone in his position make a decision either way? All questions worth thinking about. And IMHO, intricately woven of human nature and our immediate economies. I fail to see the foundation of a moral dilemma, leave alone out…

>Would he turn it down merely and strictly due to the number of zeroes tacked after the first six digits?

Of course not. And I don't blame my father in law for taking the money either. Why wouldn't he?

I understand your confusion. I was not clear.

I don't think it is personally shameful for my father in law to accept the money. I think it is shameful that we, as a society, have allowed a system to function where he is offered that kind of money. You can cite 'market forces' as the reason that state of affairs exist but the truth is that the market doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is shaped by regulations, standards and bureaucracy put in place by intention or by accident by human beings. No place is that more true than healthcare.

Whether it is doctors that own a hospital or surgical center that, on paper, operate at razor thin margins while paying their principal shareholders, who happen to be employees, exorbitant amounts of money or urine testing companies charging thousands of dollars for a single drug screening while giving kickbacks to doctors in the form of leasing office space in their clinics for far more than market rates for their representatives, or medical supply companies that charge more for refilling oxygen tanks than the tanks themselves cost new and filled then we have some inefficiencies that could use the light of day below the surface.

None of these things are crippling in and of themselves. All of them together are creating a crisis that affects almost every person in the United States.

Re: That “distressed baby" Tim Armstrong blamed for benefit cuts? She’s my daughter

#272
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For your reference: I don't have children of my own. When I was 16, my mother gave birth to twins, so I have more parenting experience than the typical childless American, including that of holding closely-related infants. > It's easier to make the calls before you have a kid, they are calls in theory. After you have a kid you are changed Very true, but I don't see myself reversing on this.

You are an ignorant, arrogant idiot, and a callous asshole. BTW, we already knew you didn't have kids. We knew that both from your beliefs, and moreso from the the hurtful language you chose to use. We all already knew you were childless. And single. And white. And male. And a programmer. And an asshole. Now do the world a favor, and shut up. Forever.

I agree with your point of view, but I don't think you've phrased it productively, let alone respectfully. I know it's a touchy topic, but you'll be a better advocate if you avoid flying off the handle.

Re: That “distressed baby" Tim Armstrong blamed for benefit cuts? She’s my daughter

#273
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That still doesn't maximize overall benefit. What if the money were instead spent on 10 individuals that needed 1/10 the money to save their lives? The cost benefit analysis to determine what medical issues make most sense should try to maximize the number of person-years-lived across the entire population.

You're assuming that we're at capacity on spending, but we're not. Instead, we can afford to bring 11 individuals into the world. The absolute gain to society is still greater than simply bringing 10 into the world. Maximizing number of total person years is not sufficient because a population 100x as large but living 1/5 as long would be superior to a population of the current size but living twice as long. I'd argu…

Given X amount of money paid per person as a in premium and Y number of people paying those premiums, we should have XY available to spend on healthcare. That is a hard cap on healthcare spending.

While we can afford to maintain* 11 individuals in the world. There reaches a point where over that entire population, we need to triage the medical issues in that population into the people whose issues maximize human-hours-lived given the X*Y healthcare dollars available to spend treating those issues. Maybe it's not the first person that requires treatment costing a million dollars we need to triage, but you eventually will run out of money if you don't triage because we simply don't pay unlimited premiums to meet the unlimited demand for healthcare.

The issue about overpopulation is a red herring, and in this case isn't just of function of helping people live longer. Many countries once they reach a level of prosperity stop having children at the necessary replacement rate of 2.1 children per couple once that society becomes affluent. The dropping replacement rate often correlates with societies ability to spend more money on helping their population live longer through spending on medical treatment.

Re: That “distressed baby" Tim Armstrong blamed for benefit cuts? She’s my daughter

#274
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That still doesn't maximize overall benefit. What if the money were instead spent on 10 individuals that needed 1/10 the money to save their lives? The cost benefit analysis to determine what medical issues make most sense should try to maximize the number of person-years-lived across the entire population.

The money spend where '1/10 the money' was needed to save their lives is additional money spent, not 'instead money'. In this particular case, the 'instead money' was pure profits for a company (and some taxes for the government). Do you really think that the 'instead money' would have been a better choice? Money is just money and is completely replaceable. Actually, we have machines to make it: it's printable. Actua…

Unfortunately, I wasn't clear in my comment above like I was in other comments in this thread. I am specifically referring to a not-for-profit focused healthcare system. If the choice is between profits and the care necessary to help a life, then it boils down to the contractual obligation of the insurer given the level of coverage purchased. In a nationalized healthcare system where costs are spread across all of society and the government has more or less determined the pool of healthcare dollars available by specifying the premium spent per citizen, there most certainly is a cost benefit analysis to consider.

Re: That “distressed baby" Tim Armstrong blamed for benefit cuts? She’s my daughter

#275
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

decries outlandish million dollar spending to save child's life. Where exactly did he do that?

He is quoted saying that right on the linked page. But here is the exact quote, in case you haven't perused the original submission: "We had two AOL-ers that had distressed babies that were born that we paid a million dollars each to make sure those babies were OK in general. And those are the things that add up into our benefits cost. So when we had the final decision about what benefits to cut because of the increa…

Really? My eyesight must be going bad, because I don't see anywhere in that quote where he calls the spending on these babies "outlandish".

Re: That “distressed baby" Tim Armstrong blamed for benefit cuts? She’s my daughter

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He chose to make it specific, rather than just saying 'employee medical insurance costs were higher than expected.' By using the specific medical problems of two families to cast management in a positive light and also to justify changing the firms pension contribution structure to be less generous, he made the decision to present these issues as a zero sum game in which the beneficiaries of medical insurance - somet…

All of that may, or may not, be true. But none of it addresses the issue I was questioning, which is how anybody can claim to understand "Tim Armstrong's attitude towards the lives of his employee's children" based on nothing more than this one news article. I'm saying we shouldn't be rushing to judgment, and creating this caricatured images of Armstrong (or anybody else) and basically screaming "off with his head",…

What else should we judge someone by if not their speech and actions?

Re: That “distressed baby" Tim Armstrong blamed for benefit cuts? She’s my daughter

#277
post #258
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's still a terrible argument. > The "extraordinary" expense of this child actually only requires a 14% increase in value over the average citizen to make sense. Ok, fair enough, we'll ignore the question of whether average really makes sense, but there's a bigger problem: there's absolutely no reason to expect this hugely premature baby to have >14% increase of value. Why? This is completely unfounded, completely…

> That's still a terrible argument. It was one of three points made, the last point being the most significant. Our humanity should take priority over negligible costs. > there's absolutely no reason to expect this hugely premature baby to have >14% increase of value Without a standard deviation on the average, there is no way to say whether or not 14% is reasonable. Regardless, I was simply pointing out that it's a…

> Without a standard deviation on the average, there is no way to say whether or not 14% is reasonable.

There is no reason to expect the expectation of preemies to be above average, never mind 14%, never mind standard deviations. And there is substantial empirical evidence which I linked you to expect it to be far below average. Rescuing a preemie, even if it were free, would be a bad idea compared to alternatives like simply trying again.

> Even if the child winds up providing 50% of the value of an average person, it can still be a net gain.

And we're right back to your original problem: you are not thinking on the margin. The alternative to spending millions on premature babies is not no babies ever. (And even if it was, there's still superior alternatives: for example, lobbying for Open Borders. Think of all the millions of immigrants who'd love to come to the USA, for free! We wouldn't even have to pay them! Why, even if they're 99% below average, it's still a gain!)

> The stats you cite are for extreme cases on the edge of viability and the odds still slightly favor normal or near-normal development.

Which is what we are discussing, is it not? Or do even slightly premature babies come with million-dollar pricetags...?

> That's horrible reasoning. The human body has evolved over millions of years for birth. It is the optimal gestation machine. We're working on approximating this optimal machine with artificial machines

I'm not seeing any disagreement here. Yes, the human body is the optimal gestation machine. That's why premature babies come with all the penalties. (And note that those citations are just the penalties sufficient to be documented with small samples; there's not much reason to expect the penalty to abruptly cut off somewhere, it's just the long-term effects shrink enough to be hidden by noise and methodological problems and researcher careers' limits.)

> That starts at birth.

An arbitrary line is not a good basis for a system of ethics and governance.

> What you're proposing is barbaric and borderline infantcide.

I'm happy to own to that. It is infanticide. Premature fetuses are not humans in the moral sense: they have no hopes, they have no dreams, they have no desires or preferences, they do not think, and they have the moral status of a puppy or kitten. Given the disabilities they come with, throwing away hundreds of thousands of dollars in heroic medical measures is a crime against society and the person the parents could have raised instead.

Re: That “distressed baby" Tim Armstrong blamed for benefit cuts? She’s my daughter

#278
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

left her to die and her family in a permanent state of medical bankruptcy. I can't get my head round this, as someone born and raised in the UK, America's health care system (or lack there of) is the single thing that will stop me ever wanting to live in the US.

The reason you can't wrap your head around it is that it's not actually true. People love saying that about America, but it's not true and never has been. For cases like that there is government insurance. It's called Medicaid, or Chip, or a bunch of other names, and it's available everywhere. (And it doesn't help that the person you replied to is doubly confused and combined two unrelated things to confuse him even…

To be absolutely clear: The CEO is the person who rhetorically conflated Obamacare and having to pay for the babies, not me. Don't try to poison the well by trying to shift his misspeaking to me.

Re: That “distressed baby" Tim Armstrong blamed for benefit cuts? She’s my daughter

#279
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not based on 'one news article', it's based on something Armstrong said (and planned to say) which is /reported/ in a news article.

You're just quibbling over semantics now. It's still just one "news incident" if you're prefer that lingo. And it's still a mistake for any of us to assume that we now know all about Tim Armstrong as a result.

You seem to think that the number of times someone makes a carefully prepared public statement needs to be greater than one to determine what they think on the subject.

I do not see how the logic follows there.

That it's reported in the news or published on his blog or written in a memoir or whatever is not the relevant fact here. The relevant fact is that it is something that he carefully planned to say and said, and that is sufficient information to have high confidence that it is what he meant to say and therefore what he thinks.

Re: That “distressed baby" Tim Armstrong blamed for benefit cuts? She’s my daughter

#280
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just quibbling over semantics now. It's still just one "news incident" if you're prefer that lingo. And it's still a mistake for any of us to assume that we now know all about Tim Armstrong as a result.

You seem to think that the number of times someone makes a carefully prepared public statement needs to be greater than one to determine what they think on the subject. I do not see how the logic follows there. That it's reported in the news or published on his blog or written in a memoir or whatever is not the relevant fact here. The relevant fact is that it is something that he carefully planned to say and said, an…

You seem to think that the number of times someone makes a carefully prepared public statement needs to be greater than one to determine what they think on the subject.

I do not see how the logic follows there.

Then there really isn't anything more to say. If you really think a person's attitude (which was the original issue under discussion in this sub-thread) can be thoroughly identified and analyzed and dissected based on one example of their speech, then so be it.

I happen to think human beings are far more complex than that, that context matters, that there are huge issues of subjective interpretation and nuance in play, and that it's a mistake for anybody to assume that they have some kind of deep insight into this guy, based just on this.

That it's reported in the news or published on his blog or written in a memoir or whatever is not the relevant fact here.

Nobody is claiming that. What I'm claiming is "insufficient data".

The relevant fact is that it is something that he carefully planned to say and said, and that is sufficient information to have high confidence that it is what he meant to say and therefore what he thinks.

The problem is going from "what he said" to "what you think he thinks". He said something very specific, and I see a lot of people making radical inferences and generalizations based off of that. What he said is what he said yes, but people aren't just talking about that, they're talking about their own interpretation of what he said, which is colored by their own biases and preconceptions... and, in this case, probably just a little bit of mob psychology.

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