Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Steam Controller

store.steampowered.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 370 posts

Re: Steam Controller

#271

Post by gcb0 »

jjkmk wrote: post #264
hayksaakian wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long time users of trackball mice will disagree with you http://mobile.logitech.com/en-us/mice-pointers/trackballs

Using Counter Strike as the flag ship FPS for Valve there currently aren't any professional players using a trackball: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkghPvIh7ZVwdGZ...

As a trackball heavy user (i use both thumb and index ones, with both hands) I avoid playing FPS without a mouse!

the thumbs trackball is more precise. But still not good. A good and cheap microsoft mouse is always with me when i'm playing FPSs.

Also, even if the control wasn't an issue, no trackball has more than 300DPI. EVER. The minimum for mouses is 400. I don't know why that is. But even the overly expensive Kensington ones are crappy even to click on a 10x10 button on regular usage, let alone to headshot in a FPS.

Re: Steam Controller

#272

Post by PeterisP »

kgermino wrote: post #145
jlgreco wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can move a finger a lot faster than a whole arm. If you're moving your arm to move your mouse, there is probably something wrong with your mouse.

If you're moving your arm to move your mouse IIRC I've always been old that I should move my whole arm with the mouse. The idea being that it's a small movement for your elbow/shoulder but a much larger movement for you wrist so you can avoid wrist injuries by moving your whole arm.

well, I don't move the wrist as well - the idea is that you rest your wrist in a comfortable position, and move it with your fingers, the full range of motion needed is less than an inch.

If your arm is up in the air so that it can move the mouse, then it will get tired after a few hours, won't it?

Re: Steam Controller

#273

Post by PhasmaFelis »

vacri wrote: post #260
laeus wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got a chance to try this out with a first-person shooter. I was not very happy with it. It felt worse than mouse+keyboard and simultaneously worse than dual-analog gamepads. Everybody in the room had issues calibrating and re-centering themselves. I'm sure it gets better with more use, but that's just the problem: it fails a fundamental usability test, because the initial experience of using it is pretty awful and…

My first impression on viewing the controller is that reporting the 'location' of the thumb is going to be hard. Unlike a joystick or mouse that has a well-defined point, the thumb touches over a large area. You can find the centroid of this area - and the area will change size and shape as the thumb is rolled around. Different people will roll their thumbs differently, and there may be a mismatch between intent and…

I suspect that will be a feature, not a bug. I already use finger-rolling on my laptop trackpad when I need pixel-level precision. For noobs, the difference probably won't be noticeable; for experts, I expect they'll be using that technique on purpose.

Re: Steam Controller

#274

Post by PeterisP »

eric_cc wrote: post #193
icebraining wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I think the reason is more fundamental: with a mouse, you're doing a direct translation (distance in pad → distance on screen), while with a gamepad you're doing an indirect translation (distance in stick → velocity in screen). This is harder, because you're essentially forced to calculate (in a low conscious way, of course) distance/speed to know for how much time you should turn the stick.

This isn't true. With a mouse you have acceleration settings that greatly change how distance works. Flick your mouse up quick vs slowly move it and measure how much distance you've moved your mouse relative to where your mouse moved to on the screen.

For any high-dpi mouse this is not useful and not used even in ordinary windows/mac mode (is it really turned on by default? ugh..); and I've never seen it used in games.

Re: Steam Controller

#275

Post by CatMtKing »

YokoZar wrote: post #256
anonymous wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably you won't ever raise your thumb from the circle, therefore never losing your place.

You'll need to hit the other buttons eventually

It looks like the trackpad has raised guide-circles to keep you centered.

Re: Steam Controller

#276

Post by noonespecial »

anonymous wrote: post #234
paulgerhardt wrote: post #170

I got to hold one of these a few months ago. It's solid. The ergonomics are there. The same designer[1] was previously at {one of the other three very large gaming console manufacturers} and knows a thing or two about controllers. My understanding is it will be significantly more accurate than traditional joysticks and competitive with a mouse (with a mouse you have a single 'large' plane of motion, with this, you ha…

I don't see how my right thumb could be as precise as moving the mouse, which I do with all 5 of my fingers (for tiny movements) or from my shoulder (for larger movements). If thumb touchpads were good for FPS games, how come nobody is playing them with their thumb on their laptop's touchpad? Maybe I'm just old, but I don't see myself ever being able to use this.

Controllers like this are notoriously hard to get right. The tiniest details matter immensely and mean the difference between joyous and unusable.

There's just no way to judge a controller without physically holding it and walking an FPS mile with it as your shoes.

I spent the early 90's going from one giant, gaudy "flight stick" to the next, never knowing that what I really wanted was a pair of miniature thumb-sticks. My mind is wide open to stuff like this.

Re: Steam Controller

#277

Post by prawn »

Given that it's pretty much symmetrical, I wonder if it would've been possible to split it into two parts (each the same) and move the touchscreen elsewhere. The future, if you believe Sixense/etc is in controllers held by each hand with each arm free to move independently. Allows for less space for electronics and duplication I guess.

Just find it funny that the future in late 2013 is still something requiring that our hands are held so closely together.

Re: Steam Controller

#278

Post by PhasmaFelis »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #196
paulgerhardt wrote: post #170

I got to hold one of these a few months ago. It's solid. The ergonomics are there. The same designer[1] was previously at {one of the other three very large gaming console manufacturers} and knows a thing or two about controllers. My understanding is it will be significantly more accurate than traditional joysticks and competitive with a mouse (with a mouse you have a single 'large' plane of motion, with this, you ha…

> For Valve to bring PC gaming to your TV/Couch, they really needed to nail the interface. I don't understand the problem with traditional mouse+kb for couch gaming. I've been using it for years and haven't encountered any drawbacks (using wireless mouse+kb combo). Am able to play online FPS and RTS, both of which require extreme precision and extreme low latency, at very high levels. You use a solid mousemat, place…

"No one has ever been able to match the precision and control of mouse+kb"

Someone did some tests a while back with a gamepad-trackball (trackball replacing the right thumbstick). They found that pro PC FPS gamers did just as well with it as with mouse+keyboard, after a short adjustment period.

Here's some quotes from the most recent attempt (out of three that I know of) to crowdfund one of those (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/485185897/revolve-goes-w...):

"...I attained a level of accuracy I had never experienced without a mouse and keyboard combination." - Gerry Block, IGN

"You will spend less time fighting your controls and more time fighting bad guys." - Grant Collier, Co-Founder of Infinity Ward and Co-Creator of Call of Duty

Of course it failed anyway, because gamers all went "LOOKS DUMB LOL" and refused to read further. I was really hoping that Valve's controller would be a trackballpad; if it actually made it to market, I'm confident that ongoing positive reviews would lead to popular adoption.

Re: Steam Controller

#279

Post by PhasmaFelis »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #196
paulgerhardt wrote: post #170

I got to hold one of these a few months ago. It's solid. The ergonomics are there. The same designer[1] was previously at {one of the other three very large gaming console manufacturers} and knows a thing or two about controllers. My understanding is it will be significantly more accurate than traditional joysticks and competitive with a mouse (with a mouse you have a single 'large' plane of motion, with this, you ha…

> For Valve to bring PC gaming to your TV/Couch, they really needed to nail the interface. I don't understand the problem with traditional mouse+kb for couch gaming. I've been using it for years and haven't encountered any drawbacks (using wireless mouse+kb combo). Am able to play online FPS and RTS, both of which require extreme precision and extreme low latency, at very high levels. You use a solid mousemat, place…

*"You use a solid mousemat, place that on the couch beside you. The keyboard goes in your lap. Kick your feet up and game away. It works great."

I've played console games with three other people scrunched up on a love seat; lying on the couch; sitting crosslegged on the floor; and sprawled out in a beanbag chair. Sometimes I get tired of having my hands in my lap, so I stretch them out behind my head. If I want to relocate, I can keep playing as I walk across the room, or pause and carry the controller in one hand and my drink in the other.

That's the sort of flexibility I want in a "couch controller," not just sitting still on the couch by myself.

Re: Steam Controller

#280

Post by Fargren »

YokoZar wrote: post #256
anonymous wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably you won't ever raise your thumb from the circle, therefore never losing your place.

You'll need to hit the other buttons eventually

Well, this does have 6 triggers you can press without releasing either trackpad.
Post reply on HN