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English has been my pain for 15 years

antirez.com

271–280 of 308 posts

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTFPD is about people forbidding ideas because they are offensive , rather than having an honest debate about them. I'm perfectly willing to debate any idea with an honest opponent who's not going to get offended and start calling me names like "xenophobe" and "racist". Once name-calling starts, we are playing the grade school game of seeing who can invent the worst insult. No thanks.

From what I can find there's been around a thousand comments on the subject over the last week. Three comments called someone xenophobic, all of those where directed at pg. No comment called anyone else on HN a racist. So either I'm missing something or you're doing the exact same thing you accuse others of, making false accusations and overreacting.

I don't understand why people are engaging crassus instead of downvoting and flagging him into oblivion.

It's a brand new account that's posting deeply hypocritical crap, and the only "real" identity tied to it is a new and spammy twitter account.

Let's not pretend he's here for a conversation when every single available signal indicates that he's full of shit.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#272
While pg's comment may have seemed insensitive to some, it has helped bring to light some of the anxieties that foreign-born founders may themselves have (for instance, about the way the local culture they're founding a company in will perceive them due to their accent, not forgetting their ability to communicate anyway).

Posts like this one are a sign that cultural phenomena such as this will be more visible, and won't just disappear into the detritus of forgotten blogs. Do some foreign-born founders struggle with their accents? Yes. Is a strong accent a barrier to communication? Quite likely, yes. Is it worth it for a founder to do what it takes to communicate her message exactly, and nothing else? Absolutely.

Shouldn't the goal be to either: 1) become excellent communicators, or to 2) find excellent communicators, and get them on "our" team?

Now we can focus on, with our characteristic laser-like ability, and talk about why accents may hold somebody back, as a community, and how we can help people succeed anyway.

Some ideas: - Schools to help founders communicate better? - An additional service within accelerator programs to help founders with strong accents become effective anyway? (Maybe YC could just take this and run with it)

Solve that problem and move on to the next one. Isn't that The Rule?

Let me take the opportunity to focus on what, imho, started this whole controversy. While I consider pg's position to be valid, he should probably have explained it better, through his usual channel of the essay form, before talking about it in the media, where his words were much more likely to be taken out of context. He didn't, they were, and we're left picking up the media-transformed pieces of what would have been an otherwise instructive take on what might hold some foreign-born startup founders back. pg seems to have forgotten why he writes essays (explore ideas as fully as possible, while leaving room for improvement), and now he has to pay for that mistake with a (possibly -- I have no way of knowing if he'd prepared an article about this) quickly written piece of damage control, published in the middle of a frenzy of accusations and hurt feelings. The "Founders' Accents" essay is weaker than it would have been if he'd written it before he did the inc.com interview, as the interviewer would have had a more self-contained source to reference, counter-arguments and all.[0]

I must conclude, therefore, that his comment may have done more harm, in the short-term, than good. It remains to be seen whether we can turn this around for the good of all.

We should remember, though, that we're in this together, and pg is not the only one who has a responsibility to make sure the people that matter don't miss out on opportunities because of something that can be fixed. Which is not to say that its trivial. Fifteen years is a long time.

[0] For one, I don't think the discussion surrounding it would have devolved into accusations of racism, though that probably says more about my view of people than about pg's detractors in this case.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#273

The number one rule I have taught to people who speak English as a second language is to always always always learn polysyllabic words, especially those with 3+ syllables, to learn them back to front and never from front to back, which is the natural way to approach learning long words. Instead of learning a word like onomatopeia like this: on... ono... onomat... onomato... onomatopei... onomatopeia Try saying it out…

I think you have misspelled the word "onomatopoeia". (Which would normally be fine – it's just such an important word in your post that I thought you should know.)

To give my post some much-needed useful content, and not look as though I was simply sniping someone's spelling, I may as well share my mnemonic for spelling "onomatopoeia."

It's 12 letters, and there's a sort-of pattern in four groups of three with a rhythm. o-n-o, m-a-t, o-p-o, e-i-a. The first and third parts are like rhyming lines in a poem.

That's how I see it, anyway.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#276
post #48
post #28

I don't understand why people are making such a big fuss about the PG article. He gave only one example of so many red hearing. Obviously being a foreigner with a strong accent doesn't help you when 90% of your time is spent communicating. duh. What makes me sad is that by being honest and wanting to help founders, PG just got a new shit load of problems from people over-reacting. Do you really think he'll give great…

The problem of PG (and yours) it's the lack on empathy, simply as that. Like "antirez" says, English is not a hobby: English is pushed down the throat of a growing share of people around the world today. And they need English to live a normal life, not for fancy careers. Imagine yourself to be forced to speak Japanese to gain your money, because you have no alternatives. How you would feel if all your efforts will be…

'If you want a friend - get a dog'. Likewise, if you want empathy, watch Oprah.

I believe there needs to be room for honest realistic views to be voiced - even if you don't like the reality they describe.

PG did not say that janitors need to polish their accent - he's talking about startup founders. These are the guys that want to strike it rich, let's be real. If you want to "make it" in this part of the world, deal with the fact that command of English is expected from company founders here.

And yes - it's not my native language either.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#277
post #214
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of your examples are relevant. Andy Grove did not found Intel, and his accent is not incomprehensible. Likewise Tim Cook did not found Apple in China.

Grove not being the founder of Intel is a very pedantic point. He was there since day one of the company and had the biggest influence on Intel’s domination of the industry since it was startup (more than anyone else in the company’s history). Also, you need to have a distinct definition of what a strong accent is. If Grove has a clear accent not sure who we are talking about. Every time someone gives a counterexampl…

I don't have any recordings of Grove from the late 60s/early 70s, but in every recent video I've seen his accent is about as strong as Arnold Schwarzenegger's. It's noticeable, but it hardly affects your ability to understand what he's saying.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have misspelled the word "onomatopoeia". (Which would normally be fine – it's just such an important word in your post that I thought you should know.)

To give my post some much-needed useful content , and not look as though I was simply sniping someone's spelling, I may as well share my mnemonic for spelling "onomatopoeia." It's 12 letters, and there's a sort-of pattern in four groups of three with a rhythm. o-n-o, m-a-t, o-p-o, e-i-a. The first and third parts are like rhyming lines in a poem. That's how I see it, anyway.

Doh! Thanks. TBH I just pick the first fun polysyllabic word that I figured foreign speakers might find difficult to pronounce. On a different day I may have chosen another word.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#279

The number one rule I have taught to people who speak English as a second language is to always always always learn polysyllabic words, especially those with 3+ syllables, to learn them back to front and never from front to back, which is the natural way to approach learning long words. Instead of learning a word like onomatopeia like this: on... ono... onomat... onomato... onomatopei... onomatopeia Try saying it out…

This is a fantastic idea! Do you mind if I share that with my English students?

Certainly. I have another excellent trick for you that I was able to use to teach my all my Chinese students back in the day how to pronounce the word "usually", which is a notoriously difficult word for Chinese speakers.

Exploiting the technique above, start with a word in the language of the audience that share phonemes with your target word. From there you essentially play something similar to Lewis Carroll's "Doublets" game from the end to the beginning. So for the word "usually" I would usually start with the city in China, "Guanzhou" and proceed as follows (excuse my poor man's phonetic spelling):

    Gwan-jo
    Gwan-jo
    Gwan-jo
    Gwan-jo
    Gwan-joooo
    Gwan-joooo
    Gwan-joooo
    Gwan-joooo
    Gwan-joooo-aaaa
    Gwan-joooo-aaaa
    Gwan-joooo-aaaa
    Gwan-joooo-aaaa
    Gwan-joo-a-lee
    Gwan-joo-a-lee
    Gwan-joo-a-lee
    Gwan-joo-a-lee
    joo-a-lee
    joo-a-lee
    joo-a-lee
    joo-a-lee
    yoo-joo-a-lee
    yoo-joo-a-lee
    yoo-joo-a-lee
    yoo-joo-a-lee
The repetition is performed until your student(s) ha(s|ve) properly pronounced the current temperoary utterance.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#280
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but you're hard pressed to argue that it isn't true. But it's only true (if it is true, and I haven't seen anything to show that it is) because it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. There's nothing about it that needs it to be true. "The world needs a common language; you lazy thickos need to speak English (which, coincidentally, is what I speak) otherwise you only have yourselves to blame" is the language of fascists a…

Are you saying the world doesn't need a common language? Or that there's a better choice than English? Yes it sucks a lot for some people, and no it isn't fair, but that doesn't change it. What would you have us do?

> Are you saying the world doesn't need a common language?

It is very easy to say that common languages are good when you already speak that common language.

Common languages are great when you've reached the point of doing the job, but they cause extra burden on large parts of the world population and are a barrier to entry for poor people.

One response is to say "Let's teach a simple international English to as many people as possible". Another response is to say "Let's create excellent quality documentation, and then translate this into the majority languages." These need not be exclusive, we can do both.

My misplaced anger you see in this thread comes from my perception of the tone of the 'learn English' side.

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