Live data from Hacker News

We should only work 25 hours a week, argues professor

sciencenordic.com

271–279 of 279 posts

Re: We should only work 25 hours a week, argues professor

#271
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sorry, I must disagree. Two people working 20 hours a week are refreshed, not burned out, have time for educationally side projects, etc. Take a look at Brooks' The Mythical Man Month for data that demonstrates the opposite, at least in programming; I haven't followed the field closely, but education and industrial organization researchers have done similar work in other professions.

Brooks' was at IBM, they adhere to a 37.5 hours per week work schedule. Programmers who can produce 3-4 hours of real work per day are considered productive. Any more and you will start to burn them out.

Not to detract from your overall point, but, as an IBMer, I can assure you that - while my full-time employment contract says max 37.5 hours - the reality is that at least 40 hours are expected.

Re: We should only work 25 hours a week, argues professor

#272
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that the "last mile" was owned by whatever company had been granted the local monopoly. If the "last mile" is owned by the government, and the power companies connect at hubs, then there is no actual "natural monopoly." I think that's actually a good solution. A better solution would be to have the "last mile" owned by the people who own properties, but that may be nit picking. And I think…

>>>Given that the telco industry is 100% made up of government-granted regulatory monopolies, this act clearly did not implement deregulation. I do not think it is controversial to say that deregulation is the act or process of removing or reducing state regulations. I have checked several dictionaries and encyclopedias, on line and dead-tree. So a slight reduction in the regulatory laws that contributed to the forma…

I think that a _proper_ definition of "deregulation" is "completely removing regulation." Anything short of that is "partial deregulaiton."

I think that many people act as if and/or think that a proper definition of "deregulation" is "reducing regulation."

However, I see no point in arguing about definitions. I propose that we just use the terms "complete deregulation" and "partial deregulation" from here on out, so as to be non-ambiguous.

Given this, let me state my stance on partial deregulation. I thought about stating it earlier, but it seemed just barely too tangential.

I think partial deregulation is often much worse than regulation.

For example, regulation may take the form of "Cable company X has the exclusive right to lay coaxial cable in our city. In return, cable company X must allow our city to have our own special channel where we can post public announcements; and, it must lay wire to all areas of the city, regardless of income level; and, it must allow the city to set rates that subscribers can be charged."

Under partial deregulation, X may be allowed to set whatever rates it wants, but still have the exclusive right to lay coaxial cable. So, it can gouge customers.

In this case, partial deregulation didn't correct a situation in which the government was overstepping its bounds. It partially corrected it, and in doing so, made things worse.

I think this is overwhelmingly the kind of thing that happens with partial deregulation, and I think partial deregulation is overwhelmingly what happens these days when politicians talk about deregulation.

Sorry, I know you just wanted me to agree/disagree with your definition rather than adding a bunch of new intellectual content... but I figured the above would be helpful (and likely similar to what you were thinking).

Re: We should only work 25 hours a week, argues professor

#273
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>Given that the telco industry is 100% made up of government-granted regulatory monopolies, this act clearly did not implement deregulation. I do not think it is controversial to say that deregulation is the act or process of removing or reducing state regulations. I have checked several dictionaries and encyclopedias, on line and dead-tree. So a slight reduction in the regulatory laws that contributed to the forma…

I think that a _proper_ definition of "deregulation" is "completely removing regulation." Anything short of that is "partial deregulaiton." I think that many people act as if and/or think that a proper definition of "deregulation" is "reducing regulation." However, I see no point in arguing about definitions. I propose that we just use the terms "complete deregulation" and "partial deregulation" from here on out, so…

>>>However, I see no point in arguing about definitions. I propose that we just use the terms "complete deregulation" and "partial deregulation" from here on out, so as to be non-ambiguous.

Agreed. All dictionaries disagree, but I'm not talking to any of them.

I believe that all reasonable people agree that history has shown that monopolies are inefficient in a capitalist system(see the 1920s for example). I feel that government-granted regulatory monopolies are also inefficient in a capitalist system. From your comments, I assume that you agree with both of these things, please let me know if you have a different view.

My understanding of the invention of regulations is this: Full deregulation of business seems like the best possible solution, until the point that companies become so big that they form monopolies that stifle competition. Then the government has to come in and regulate them until they are no longer monopolies. From your comments, I assume that you agree with this, let me know if you have different views.

I have to go eat but I have a comment written up about natural monopolies with relation to telcos ready to be edited and then posted.

Re: We should only work 25 hours a week, argues professor

#274
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that a _proper_ definition of "deregulation" is "completely removing regulation." Anything short of that is "partial deregulaiton." I think that many people act as if and/or think that a proper definition of "deregulation" is "reducing regulation." However, I see no point in arguing about definitions. I propose that we just use the terms "complete deregulation" and "partial deregulation" from here on out, so…

>>>However, I see no point in arguing about definitions. I propose that we just use the terms "complete deregulation" and "partial deregulation" from here on out, so as to be non-ambiguous. Agreed. All dictionaries disagree, but I'm not talking to any of them. I believe that all reasonable people agree that history has shown that monopolies are inefficient in a capitalist system(see the 1920s for example). I feel tha…

Full deregulation of business seems like the best possible solution, until the point that companies become so big that they form monopolies that stifle competition. Then the government has to come in and regulate them until they are no longer monopolies. From your comments, I assume that you agree with this, let me know if you have different views.

Well, I don't think natural monopolies exist (as we discussed previously), only regulatory monopolies.

So, I don't think companies can become so big that they become natural monopolies.

I had written about some example cases that help support this (IBM, MS, Bell Telephone), but it was too long and probably not worth it, so I removed them.

Re: We should only work 25 hours a week, argues professor

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If not, then fuck you you smug ass - it costs to live. Wow. Now why was that necessary? Poster makes a valid point – $10 daily will buy you an existence that looks positively palatial to some, and near a pauper to others. You will be living well, relative to any number of other humans, but lacking the things you want. For example, you probably stop living in the Bay Area.

What? Your argument is to not live in the bay area? OK - Ill move to [WHERE EXACTLY?] to live on a palatial compound for $10/day. N has adopted the reality distortion field, apparently only idiots live here now. Why would I live in the bay area? how stupid of me... *Danilocampos, you're quire renowned here on HN, I find your post to be the lamest thing you have ever said. The replies to my comments have been the lame…

> *Danilocampos, you're quire renowned here on HN, I find your post to be the lamest thing you have ever said.

Gosh, are you sure? I've said tons of lame things – not sure this even nudges the needle.

Re: We should only work 25 hours a week, argues professor

#276
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The regulations just put a maximum; there is nothing preventing companies from offering lower hours if they wish. Before those maximums were brought in, you had the same situation as now, just with more hours being standard: you had to agree to 6-days-a-week, 10+ hour days, or nothing. The union movement successfully negotiated that down to 5-days-a-week, 8-hour days as a cap, which was at least an improvement.

Note that there are drawbacks in several countries of not working "full time". You do not get the same rights towards a pension, you do not get the same rules for overtime, and other benefits do not apply. Therefore there is also a strong incentive, based on regulations, not to work less than 40 hours either.

Computer professionals in the US don't get pensions or overtime pay at all.

Re: We should only work 25 hours a week, argues professor

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is what constitutes "maintaining a living", both in your own choices and governmental influence. I can show you how to live well on $10/day, but then you'd complain about not having X Y and Z (starting with two cars and a mortgage in a narrow geographic range). If you can't do without what amounts to luxuries to 75% of the world population, discussing how many hours a week you "should" work is a non-start…

OK - I am your student I live in the bay area, Married, have 2 kids and work in SF. Show me how to live on $10/day. Consider me your student. Unless your comment of "showing me how to live on $10/day" is really titled "show a homeless 15 year-old with no job, family or financial obligations how to subsist on $10/day" If you really can show me how to live on less than the cost it is for me to get to work ($7.10, BTW)…

Bad attitude aside...

I've noticed (at least grokking it more than usual) of late "it costs to live" is a very popular, and deeply misguided, and financially devastating, frame of mind. Yes, of course, on its face the statement is true ... but it belies an existence which is completely ruled by our advertising-driven culture, in an ultimately self-destructive (in a "keep the host alive as long as possible" way) manner. The mindset places spending as the top priority; doesn't matter what the income is, what orders-of-magnitude-cheaper alternatives there are, or the long-term financial consequences, so long as swiping plastic gets results then spend we shall because "it costs to live."

Thus we have a nation saddled with $54K debt per person, and intelligent productive people getting obscenely abusive about the suggestion that living in one of the most expensive places in the world probably isn't a good idea.

Right now in arm's reach on my desk I have a can with enough seeds in it to plant an acre. Being non-hybrid/GM seeds, the $40 cost amortizes to $1/year to feed a family of four for the rest of my life. Yes, it "costs to live" - but you're loading the phrase with far more baggage than necessary.

Re: We should only work 25 hours a week, argues professor

#278
post #41

Great idea in theory, but there's a reason young people work such long hours: money. If a 22 year old graduates from college and works 25 hours a week, they won't have enough money to pay off their (almost certain) debt and live comfortably, much less have excess money to spend traveling and doing fun things. Young people work so hard so they can have the money to buy and do the things they want. Most just never stop…

Costs of stuff like rent and cars are normalized to average income levels. (Though of course with cars there is a base cost of manufacture that makes them less flexible than something like rent). Which is to say, if everyone works 25 hours a week, rents will go down (because if they don't, you have most properties sitting empty). If instead everyone works 60 hours a week, rents go up. Of course, economics is really c…

Sure, I'm sure he thought of that, and I'm sure prices would change since there would be less money earned and therefore less money in circulation. This would also require a change in standard of living though. My point is simply that people cannot maintain the same standard of living and work less, even if the entire world cut back hours at the same time. Less goods would be produced, so with the same demand then prices for everything would rise, or standards of living would fall.

Re: We should only work 25 hours a week, argues professor

#279
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Otherwise, you have gang warfare (anarchism). Wow, way to punctuate a diatribe of ignorance with equating anarchism with gang warfare.

If you can explain to me how anarchism would work "in practice" so as to not be gang warfare, or point me to an explanation, I'd appreciate it. So far, nobody has ever taken me up on this. I'm pretty sure I'm right, but I'd like to see good arguments against my own position.

Probably no one has ever "taken you up on this" because the body of literature on Anarchy is enough to be a library on it's own. Since you've somehow managed to miss it means you're unlikely to read anything anyone would point you at.

But for anyone else who might happen on this comment and be truly curious, here's a good starting point: http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/the-anarchist-faq-edi...

It's heavily cited so you can go as deep as you care to.

P.S.: The short answer is: the "gang warfare" scenario comes from bartering, whether with money or direct bartering (e.g. trade 100 loafs of bread for a bicycle). For Anarchism to work, you'd need to get rid of capitalism and bartering completely. Think Star-trek.

Also note, I'm not arguing for anarchism but rather against ignorance. I personally don't think the world is ready for anarchism but at least I know what it actually is.

Post reply on HN