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Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

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Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#271

Post by dd8601fn »

johnsmith1840 wrote: post #218
gh02t wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies like Red Hat/IBM operate in Illinois and for better or worse have controlling interests in Linux and across open source projects pretty broadly. Wouldn't they be forced to include the capability in their products, which then percolate out to everyone just by network effects?

I don't see how they enforce it though? Isn't this saying every linux instance needs basically a backdoor network access? How would verify the 30 pods on my node are from minors or adults without that? Or this is more about a user facing node? So my aws nodes need to verify my age before I ssh in? Remote desktop services? Sounds so complicated to actually do.

I suppose they only have to confirm that the OS supports age bucket reporting... not that you're using it.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#272

Post by genewitch »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #252
genewitch wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and that's as useful as self-documenting "i am over 18" or "over 21" for things that require that, without any document checks. this is a way to get something legal on paper, the rest of the stuff (patches, if you will) comes later. This asserts that age is important enough to force an operating system to comply, this opens the door.

> and that's as useful as self-documenting "i am over 18" or "over 21" for things that require that, without any document checks. No OS I'm aware of allows non-admin users to add new users to the system. Parents that care about these sorts of things don't give their kids admin access to their computers. > the rest of the stuff (patches, if you will) comes later. Unless the legislation allows for such patches through…

Maybe. I give kids more credit than most people on here, i guess. All it takes is one moment for the kids to see the password, guess the password, or whatever. if there's a physical key involved, parents sleep.

A determined kid will find a weakness in the pursuit of freedom.

also nintendo's OS lets users add users to their heart's content. At least i haven't found a way to stop a toddler from adding 6 avatars....

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#273

Post by nobody9999 »

kube-system wrote: post #162
lrvick wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need to hack the law. Our FOSS code is constitutionally protected free speech and I would defend on those grounds. The technical design of the project just makes it so no one can force changes on the distro unwanted by the maintainer team regardless of any courtroom outcomes. Like, what if someone made a law that said Bitcoin nodes must KYC? They could make the law I guess, and the international network operators…

> Our FOSS code is constitutionally protected free speech and I would defend on those grounds. You have precisely zero additional speech rights as a FOSS project than any other organization has. If "free speech" was a valid defense for you, then Meta would be doing the same. > The technical design of the project just makes it so no one can force changes on the distro unwanted by the maintainer team regardless of any…

>If "free speech" was a valid defense for you, then Meta would be doing the same.

Is that some sort of in joke? Meta loves more surveillance, more data and more info about their vassals^W users.

I'm sure their lobbyists were pushing hard to get this law passed.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#274

Post by lrvick »

pornel wrote: post #200
lrvick wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need to hack the law. Our FOSS code is constitutionally protected free speech and I would defend on those grounds. The technical design of the project just makes it so no one can force changes on the distro unwanted by the maintainer team regardless of any courtroom outcomes. Like, what if someone made a law that said Bitcoin nodes must KYC? They could make the law I guess, and the international network operators…

Technical solutions may be seen as kindly as handcuffing yourself to something when told to leave. "I can't, I've made it impossible for myself to obey the law". They might not be able to break your private keys, but they can fine you or jail you for not complying.

I could, at worst, resign from the project. International maintainers would carry on the work, but I will never be compelled to write code I do not wish to write.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#275

Post by Groxx »

genewitch wrote: post #220
koutakun wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably this means no targeting the user's preferences and just showing everything by newest/most liked.

"most liked" won't work. has to be chronological, and manually curated. the way fediverse works. when you make an account somewhere, you can choose to see the local people, or the entire network, but it's all chronological. There's things like hashtag searches and whatnot, but none of it is algorithms; in the sense we understand it to mean, here, these are not manipulative algorithms designed to keep people on a site…

There's a "trending" feed on nearly every implementation including the official Mastodon one (hashtags have their own "trending" too), and chronological definitely fits "an algorithm" imo - it has all the hallmark problems of one, such as encouraging bad behavior (frequent spamming is the most effective strategy to be seen). Lemmy is even further down this path, with "hot", "controversial", "active", etc, and defaults to "algorithmic" sorts for its front page and all comments.

Fediverse absolutely has "algorithms". People generally want them. I agree that it's broadly less user-hostile (I'm very much a fan), but it's very much moving down the same paths as twitter (mastodon), reddit (lemmy), etc.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#276

Post by xp84 »

kej wrote: post #221
xp84 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the law? It actually imposes very (in my humble opinion) good rules on the content providers, specifically social media. We know why social media is addictive - the personalized feeds are highly optimized to extend usage time, with no amount of time being "good enough." Social media sites would be banned from using this type of feed, limiting it to feeds of content you've subscribed to or requested only.…

Right, I'm saying that if the goal is to keep kids off of addictive social feeds, it would be better to have social media have to say "this site implements addictive feeds" and then I can configure my kids' devices to disallow that. The decision should be happening in my house on the devices I control, not in a Meta data center. The current law just gives Meta a way to start building a shadow profile early.

> then I can configure my kids' devices to disallow that

C'mon. We all know parents are far more likely to tap "OK" for "Allow personalized social feeds?" than they are to knowingly falsify their kids' age. The kids will be begging them to and saying "It's just to personalize it, Dad! There's nothing scary or bad on Tiktok - all my friends are using the personalized feed and mine is BORING!"

> The decision should be happening in my house on the devices I control, not in a Meta data center. The current law just gives Meta a way to start building a shadow profile early.

The decision would still be in your hand. If you want them to be using all the max addictive crap, just fake their age on the device that you bought them.

> The current law just gives Meta a way to start building a shadow profile early.

Whether or not they can start building a profile to start using at 18 is unrelated to this, and depends on data protection laws. There's no use tying the two together.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#277

Post by kube-system »

misphrasing wrote: post #144
otterley wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> constitutionally protected rights Wait, which constitutionally protected right is that? I'm an attorney and constitutional scholar and am particularly interested in what right you believe is being violated here.

Code is speech. Forcing someone to implement something is legally-compelled speech, assuming no complicating factor like commerce.

There is pretty solid case law for the constitutionality of a variety of compliance requirements. If you can comply by being silent then they aren't really compelling you to do say anything.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#278

Post by Buttons840 »

bluGill wrote: post #148
lrvick wrote: post #89

Linux distro founder here (stagex) I will never be compelled to implement this, and would never merge it. Every release requires quorum signatures by an international maintainer team, and the distro is designed to work offline-first, with some variants not even supporting network drivers in the kernel, so Illinois legislators can eat shit.

They can stop you from doing any work on the project. They can even fine or jail you for work done after the law takes affect that the international committee doesn't allow. Which is to say you can be forced to stop work. Though if you don't live in IL it is unclear how this affects you.

Can someone who knows the law explain to me how someone who lives in California, and hooks his computer in California, to a wire in California, from a company in California...

At what point do they become subject to Illinois law?

And can Illinois prosecute someone for doing something that is legal in California while they are in California?

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#279

Post by metal696heart »

normalaccess wrote: post #135

Thankfully for now this dragon is a hydra. Too many paths to block for now . The whole TPM fiasco with windows is preparation to put the genie back in the bottle. Soon, much sooner than I would like you will need a Global ID to access the internet, which will require an "internet safe operating system". It's only a matter of time. Get your sneakers ready folks.

How about a second internet ?

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#280

Post by blurbleblurble »

otterley wrote: post #188
blurbleblurble wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe we're at the point where we'll go to prison because of unjust laws.

You first!

With all due respect I sense that you might be neglecting the big picture. Unjust laws, slopped out illegal orders and an extreme activist court are all in play.
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