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'Pervert glasses': Backlash against Meta's smart glasses grows

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Re: 'Pervert glasses': Backlash against Meta's smart glasses grows

#271
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but then you are not present, you are distracted by a computer. Just because that computer does not have a clunky monitor, doesn't mean that you aren't any less distracted. Some of the attitudes on this website, especially ones like yours, are the literal reason we are in this mess today. Please, please, if you have the power, push back on this nonsense from the inside. We need more people talking to other people lik…

Nothing I described replaces or impacts talking to a human. If someone is going to distract themselves in XR, they can already do it more efficiently on a handset. The only change would be your posture and eye strain could possibly improve.

Why then are you trying to justify invasive hidden cameras in more places? Really, why not just use the existing solutions?

This push for « convenience » is how we ended up with microphones in people’s most private spaces.

I urge you to consider whether humanity really needs more technological solutions to social problems.

Re: 'Pervert glasses': Backlash against Meta's smart glasses grows

#272

Why is Meta insisting on forcing these "pervert" glasses on us? I can tell you why: advertising. I bet some "pervert" within Meta (may Zuck himself) has already thought up that whatever you look at will result in you getting an ad for that item. "I see you're looking at a car. How about this new Toyota RAV4?" "I see you're looking at a mobile phone. How about this new Samsung Galaxy Fold which is on sale." "I see you…

Meta can't literally force this on people. The idea that looking around would instantiate ads sounds pretty bad. (though the devil's advocate position would be - compare that world to the one we live in today where the ads are viewable to everyone all the time). For that to happen Meta couldn't force people to buy it, the product would have to be so compelling that people wanted it despite that. Think about how good…

No one is going to buy glasses that only show ads, that's obvious. They'll start out with something useful like glasses that recognize people and show you their public Facebook profile info. Or you look at things and it will identify what it's made of. Or show you a recipe of a dish you see in the restaurant.

Later on, when everyone's hooked they'll start showing these "relevant ads" when you look at things. Slowly at first but over time it will become a torrent.

I'm going to torch these things publicly in the street if this ever becomes a reality.

Re: 'Pervert glasses': Backlash against Meta's smart glasses grows

#273

I do think its a bit odd to automatically and "obviously" default to the idea that people will be using these to be perverts. Its a bit strange of a default assumption to me. Although its even more disheartening that most people's reactions to just about anything these days is dread about how it'll make their lives worse without fail.

> Its a bit strange of a default assumption to me. What is _your_ default assumption re: use case? I honestly can't think of any use cases (outside of very niche a11y uses) that are not in some way offensive, though perhaps not 'perverted'. This product is absolutely toxic, and I can't imagine myself or anyone I know being willing to associate or socialize with someone wearing them (again, excluding some very specifi…

I use mine to record a short video at each mile when I'm out running, then I upload them to my YouTube channel. People seem to enjoy them and I like having a record of each run.

Re: 'Pervert glasses': Backlash against Meta's smart glasses grows

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other devices do not feature plausible deniability when caught. The glasses do. That's the problem.

Well, I consider myself fairly stupid then! Explain to me how recording device A "when caught" (i.e., the glasses) differ from recording device B (say, a smartphone) "when caught", with respect to "plausible deniability"? In both cases, do you not have the person responsible for making the recording (because they've been "caught" as you say), regardless of the device used to make it? If you do, then that person has,…

> In both cases, do you not have the person responsible for making the recording

You have them.

> then that person has, as you say, no plausible deniability at that point, do they not?

No, they have plausible deniability if they use the common device.

> Are we talking about legal accountability

Social and legal.

> What do the glasses enable that any other video camera does not?

The glasses enable the wearer to say, "Oh sorry I didn't know they were recording." Or "They weren't recording, they're just glasses." Using a handheld VHS video camera from 1992, in 1992, would cause you to get arrested in a locker room because there is no plausible deniability. The recorder definitely chose to use it there in violation of social norms so off to jail they go.

> argument.. would have to be applied universally

Yup.

> how would it be if the manufacturers put a big, red light on the front of the glasses, that would automatically turn on when the glasses are recording

Someone else in this thread suggested that the entire rim of the glasses light up in a plainly visible and obvious fashion, including in broad daylight. That would make it acceptable because then you could tell the person, "Hey your glasses are on. They should not be on." And then the person can say "oops" and we all go on with our lives.

> You're looking for a way to prosecute unethical individuals...?

Prosecution is not strictly necessary; social effects would likely be good enough just like they are in most other contexts. Especially because many of the bad uses of these glasses will simply be mistakes. I can give you an example. I was changing in a men's locker room. You may be completely naked. There are showers and whatnot. Someone had a tripod set up with a phone attached and an LED light to take video of himself in the large mirror they have there. He surely didn't know that he was doing anything wrong. But he was. He could be told not to do that because we all could tell it was happening. With glasses, we can't.

This is an example of a problem that the glasses bring but the fact that I have typed it should not imply that it is my or anyone else's only concern. There are others.

> at least until large swaths of society accept the existence of video recording glasses like we already do with smartphones

There is no guarantee that this will happen. Open display of a firearm will get you put in a police car in many places despite owning it being a right enshrined in the constitution. You may drive a car but not anywhere you want. You may use firecrackers sometimes but not anywhere you want. You may own a cell phone but not possess it wherever you want. You may buy a backscatter x-ray machine but you may not use it wherever you want. Examples abound. You will almost definitely be able to buy Meta glasses in the future but there is no long-term guarantee that you may use them in public.

Re: 'Pervert glasses': Backlash against Meta's smart glasses grows

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I consider myself fairly stupid then! Explain to me how recording device A "when caught" (i.e., the glasses) differ from recording device B (say, a smartphone) "when caught", with respect to "plausible deniability"? In both cases, do you not have the person responsible for making the recording (because they've been "caught" as you say), regardless of the device used to make it? If you do, then that person has,…

> In both cases, do you not have the person responsible for making the recording You have them. > then that person has, as you say, no plausible deniability at that point, do they not? No, they have plausible deniability if they use the common device. > Are we talking about legal accountability Social and legal. > What do the glasses enable that any other video camera does not? The glasses enable the wearer to say, "…

I concur that most people, myself included, would not wish for video cameras of any type, overt or covert, be brought in to locker rooms or any other place where there is an expectation of at least some form of privacy.

I am not sure however, that a global public ban on the use of smart glasses, whether enacted by one (or more) countr(y/ies) law and/or by social conscience (of which Meta's smart glasses are but one in a sea of many that are/will be produced by many manufacturers in many countries, present and future) is the right answer...

The argument you present is not persuasive.

Your argument is the equivalent of saying that chainsaws (or any other inanimate tool, neither good, nor evil, merely neutral inanimate tools) are "bad" because occasionally they cut off limbs of people, both in cases of accident and by means of a few isolated cases of bad faith actors using them.

It happens from time to time, that's true...

But it's the exception, it's not the rule.

It's the same argument against self-driving cars...

Do they kill people?

Yes, from time to time they do!

But in such relatively low numbers (fractions of a fraction of a percent) relative to the amount of people using them...

It's the exception, it's not the rule.

The same argument could be applied to elevators...

Do they kill people from time to time?

Sure they do!

But again, it's the exception, it's not the rule.

Your argument is an exception, it's a corner-case, it is not the norm, and it is not how the majority of most lawful, responsible individuals in society act.

It is not how you would act, and it is not how I would act.

It is not how most responsible people would act.

In short, it is not persuasive.

Now, I don't mean to offend you in any way by saying that. Certainly you are free to attempt to persuade as many people as you wish of your viewpoint. You could seek political office and with enough political support, perhaps you could get your viewpoint enacted into Law.

And certainly I and millions of others would respect such Laws if you did get them enacted, even though I currently do not own a pair of smartglasses, produced by Meta or any other company, and I certainly would not take them into a Men's locker room with me if I did own a pair!

But you see, as far as your central argument goes, I can't (and it may be just me!) distinguish it from any other argument of the form

Neutral inanimate object or tool X is "bad" (we need laws/bans/broad social disapproval, etc.), because it enables bad faith actors Y (who are exceptions, corner-cases, outliers, not the norm of society) to engage in illegal/immoral/anti-social/unethical/unlawful action Z.

You see I've heard that same argument over and over and over again.

Your argument is an example, a specific case of that pattern.

And that pattern, because I have heard it over and over (and over!) again, is simply not persuasive.

This being said, you're entitled to your viewpoint, and you're entitled to seek any political or social action you feel may help that viewpoint!

I will not stand in your way!

But, at least at the present moment, I individually am not persuaded...

Re: 'Pervert glasses': Backlash against Meta's smart glasses grows

#276
post #26

Our idea of a public/private privacy division where private recording is discouraged and public is a free for all really feels dated. I know personally I'd love to see a private/local/wide distribution division or something like that where simply going outside to get groceries or whatever doesn't count as consent to be plastered across the net. There are real harms to being a public figure and the net rarely understa…

> where simply going outside to get groceries or whatever doesn't count as consent to be plastered across the net. I think this is wanting a rule that doesn't draw boundaries in a way that aligns with the natural world. Your right to see what is around you and to remember what you see is pretty fundamental. You might say there is a ethical reason not to gossip about what you remember seeing, but I would push back on…

Seeing and recounting is different from recording and redistributing. It is not different just by degree, but by kind as well.

Gossip is lossy, video is much less so. When gossiping, the information is trusted less by default.

There is an invasive aspect to candid video that does not exist in gossip (not even slightly).

Re: 'Pervert glasses': Backlash against Meta's smart glasses grows

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In both cases, do you not have the person responsible for making the recording You have them. > then that person has, as you say, no plausible deniability at that point, do they not? No, they have plausible deniability if they use the common device. > Are we talking about legal accountability Social and legal. > What do the glasses enable that any other video camera does not? The glasses enable the wearer to say, "…

I concur that most people, myself included, would not wish for video cameras of any type, overt or covert, be brought in to locker rooms or any other place where there is an expectation of at least some form of privacy. I am not sure however, that a global public ban on the use of smart glasses, whether enacted by one (or more) countr(y/ies) law and/or by social conscience (of which Meta's smart glasses are but one i…

You aren't persuaded by what I wrote because I did not attempt to persuade you. You asked me to explain what I meant by "plausible deniability" so I did.

> Neutral inanimate object or tool X is "bad" (we need laws/bans/broad social disapproval, etc.), because it enables bad faith actors

I never made this argument. I did, however, give what I thought was a pretty good example of good faith actors behaving badly when there is a plausible excuse for them to do so. (narcissism vs. creepiness)

I don't think you're a human. Whenever someone has misunderstood me this badly in the past, and I've kept talking to them, they turned out to be a bot. I've typed this out for you just in case I'm wrong but I'm not going to respond any further.

Re: 'Pervert glasses': Backlash against Meta's smart glasses grows

#278
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing I described replaces or impacts talking to a human. If someone is going to distract themselves in XR, they can already do it more efficiently on a handset. The only change would be your posture and eye strain could possibly improve.

Why then are you trying to justify invasive hidden cameras in more places? Really, why not just use the existing solutions? This push for « convenience » is how we ended up with microphones in people’s most private spaces. I urge you to consider whether humanity really needs more technological solutions to social problems.

[deleted]

Re: 'Pervert glasses': Backlash against Meta's smart glasses grows

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My assumption about the default use case is that people want to take normal pictures. For example, I wear them to sporting events, and it's a lot faster to take a picture of the action with my Meta glasses than with my iPhone.

It's very hard to imagine this being a better photo than one taken on a modern phone. Also, I really, really hope you take them off when using the shared bathrooms at such an event. And you know, keep them off. Permanently.

You're going to be disappointed. I wear them 24/7. I even sleep in them.

Re: 'Pervert glasses': Backlash against Meta's smart glasses grows

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I concur that most people, myself included, would not wish for video cameras of any type, overt or covert, be brought in to locker rooms or any other place where there is an expectation of at least some form of privacy. I am not sure however, that a global public ban on the use of smart glasses, whether enacted by one (or more) countr(y/ies) law and/or by social conscience (of which Meta's smart glasses are but one i…

You aren't persuaded by what I wrote because I did not attempt to persuade you. You asked me to explain what I meant by "plausible deniability" so I did. > Neutral inanimate object or tool X is "bad" (we need laws/bans/broad social disapproval, etc.), because it enables bad faith actors I never made this argument. I did, however, give what I thought was a pretty good example of good faith actors behaving badly when t…

Fair enough!

My intention was not to misunderstand you personally, only to express the general trend of what I see happening on HN, other message forums, and the mass media in general...

In fairness to you, you make some excellent points, and you long kept going into the discussion when other people would have simply given up and left.

So, to that I say, well done, and thank you for the excellent conversation!

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