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24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

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Re: 24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#271

The OP is a bit off with their description of why pro audio engineers work in higher bit rates and sample rates. We use 24bit to preserve low level sounds eg reverb, breaths etc and use 32bit float when recording as the headroom is so massive clipping is not an issue (other than of course still neeing to avoid overloading microphones with max SPL - cleanly recorded distorted sound is still a fail). Unclipping 32bit f…

Have you ever actually checked the number of actual bits your ADC can use? Most 24 bit converters struggle to get to 18 bits. Nobody uses 32 bit float for recording (to do so is just to capture at least 10 bits of noise, most of that being brownian); its strictly a format for mixing and processing. You don't get any more resolution from 32 bit floating point than you do from 24 bit integer formats, but the result of…

Note to readers, this commentary brought to you by a code writer for Ardour. Unfortunately I was unable to view any of the about information for that program, because it crashed immediately.

Re: 24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can find no evidence that Maserati (or 99% of any other mix or mastering engineers) has ever tested his "appreciation" of the "crunch" at 44.1 in a double blind environment. It is always amazing how much that is claimed about what people can hear fails to show up when tested in this, the only acceptable scientific way. Perhaps Maserati has done this, and could still tell the difference. In which case, he should car…

Just to wrap this up. Is your professional opinion that techniques like antialiasing/oversampling/etc and any sample rate above 44.1 kHz are essentially an industry-wide scam and the perceived benefits are not true ? And since there are no double-blind studies supporting this tech, both using and adding any of these features to your software would only be propagating this scam further? I.e. far more than just lecturi…

No need to add any features to Ardour - it already supports any sample rate that your hardware supports.

There are places where (a) double precision (or better) floating point math benefits DSP, but that's nowhere in Ardour (and likely, if one is clear about the definition, in any other DAW either) - certain types of plugins can benefit from this, but they should not impose that cost on the rest of the processing infrastructure (i.e. they should convert internally and then back again, rather than require that the whole host uses 64 or 80 bit floating point.

There is a reasonably good argument for 96kHz because of the possible characteristics of the brickwall filter and its impact on aliasing. This argument gets a lot weaker for even high SRs.

However, both of these are largely theoretical in the sense that very few people, if any, can reliably hear the results in actual produced music or soundtracks. So while it might be a good idea to use higher SRs, whether that actually results in something that can truly be said to "sound better" is much more questionable.

At the highest level, I think that all of this is pretty irrelevant. Most of the music that people consider "great" was recorded with equipment far below the quality levels achievable with mid-priced pro-sumer gear today (mics perhaps being the sole exception). Great music/great sound is, I think, appreciated largely independently of its audio "fidelity". There is a huge difference between an amazingly well-recorded ensemble and a poorly recorded one, but for most people, if the well-recorded ensemble is playing stuff they don't like and the poorly recorded one is playing some stuff they love, all the "fidelity" in the world won't improve the former and the lack of it won't stop them loving the latter.

In addition, with the rise of deeply impressive sample libraries and better and better synthesizers running as plugins, the AD/DA elements of music during "recording"/composition are becoming less and less important for more and more music. That amazing patch someone uses in Onmisphere doesn't get better or worse by using a higher SR, and that incredible string library (e.g. New Albion) is what it is regardless of what your converters can do.

So, in short, I would say: do what you want, but if you're going to try to justify it with science, make sure the science is right and if you're going to try to justify it with "sound", then be aware that for most people the differences won't matter (or even exist at all).

Re: 24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first diagram in that article is pretty ironic in an HN comment thread about Monty @ Xiph's stuff. Have you never seen his takedown of the "stairstep" drawing?

I have seen it. This is a marketing page after all, explaining point-wise samples, reconstruction filters and "staircases" is way beyond scope. Same as in images, pixels are not "little squares"

One of the central points of that video by Monty is that staircase drawings are a lie. It's not that they need to be explained, they need to be avoided.

Re: 24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#274
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Decades ago, I was treated to an ABX test in my brother's recording studio. I easily recognized and preferred a 24/192 master he played versus the 16/44.1 down-mix. I honestly don't know whether there was something wrong with the down-mix, but qualitatively it did feel like it was "muffled" and coming from speakers, while the master really felt like live performance. He was surprised that I could tell them apart. A…

This is easy to disprove by downsampling from a 24/192 source to 16/44.1 Even if the downsampling is (close to) ideal there are obvious differences. In fact if you can't hear the difference between 24/192 and 16/44.1 you shouldn't be working in audio. (Doesn't apply to consumers. Does apply to musicians and engineers.) It's like being colour blind. And if you don't understand the math behind quantisation, you shouldn…

> 16 bit isn't enough for hard, objective reasons. One is that the noise spectrum of quantisation is not simple. Most people assume it's something close to plain white noise, but it really isn't. It's actually a very complex spectrum with some prominent peaks at specific subdivisions of the sample rate.

What you are describing is the result of blunt truncation. If you use the most basic (“uniform” or “rectangular” a.k.a. “RPDF”) dither, the spectrum is in fact flat, as demonstrated by the video you are likely alluding to and calling “pseudoscientific” (https://youtu.be/cIQ9IXSUzuM?t=12m50s). If you sum two uniform dithers together, you get what pretty much everyone uses (“triangular” or “TPDF” dither) which, in addition to decorrelating the mean quantisation error from the signal, also decorrelates the standard deviation, eliminating noise modulation and leaving a correlation only in still higher-order moments like skewness and kurtosis.

You can even try it for yourself with SoX. Find a 24-bit track, quantise it with dither to 16-bit, calculate the difference between both tracks, blow up the difference and take its spectrogram and it will be completely flat. Or listen to the difference (mind the volume) and see if you can make out anything meaningful.

    $ sox source.flac -b 16 dithered.flac
    $ sox --combine merge source.flac dithered.flac loud-difference.flac remix 1,3i 2,4i norm -1 spectrogram  # assumes stereo input
    $ open spectrogram.png
    $ open loud-difference.flac
And then remember that this difference would normally sit at roughly -93 dB FS, so to hear it in a typical room, you would have to be listening at deafening levels. You claim that it “clearly isn’t” below the threshold of audibility but it’s not clear how you arrived at that conclusion. You then claim that the audibility of that noise floor is somehow related to what you said before about the effects of undithered quantisation, even though those effects stop being relevant the moment you apply any sort of dither.

> We hear much more complex signals in an active way, and if there's information missing in the quiet parts - which there is with limited quantisation - then the signal simply isn't accurate.

It’s not missing. You can do a similar test where you “bury” your source material in the 16-bit dither noise floor, blow it up again, and you’ll be able to detect it under the noise.

    $ sox source.flac -b 16 quiet.flac gain -100
    $ sox quiet.flac loud-again.flac norm -1
    $ open loud-again.flac
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