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Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

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Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#271

Post by ghaff »

vidarh wrote: post #236
ghaff wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to be a somewhat murky area of law. In Europe (and, I guess Canada) you can't really have public domain because of moral rights that you can't waive. IANAL but I've talked with IP lawyers about this and they've been sortof "Yes this is often kinda true." So the broad public domain that is generally true of the US government and which individuals can release in the US isn't really true in Europe as I understa…

Europe is nearly 50 different jurisdictions, spanning multiple very different legal traditions. But it is mostly not very murky. Moral rights and commercial rights are distinct in a wide range of jurisdictions. You can generally waive commercial rights, and that is for the most part sufficient for things to e.g. be "functionally" public domain in the ways most people care about. What moral rights prevent is generally…

I don't really disagree. Open source is generally recognized among European states and, from a practical perspective, permissive licenses are mostly indistinguishable from public domain other than preserving notice of the original authorship in some form. A permissive license does allow you to make pretty much any changes you want and sell it or use it in another product (or not).

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#272

Post by declan_roberts »

anothermathbozo wrote: post #191
declan_roberts wrote: post #29

I've been mostly resistant to unionization for my whole career, but I think now is the right time. Between AI and H1B, the pool of jobs available for engineers is getting smaller and smaller, especially at the low end. When you destroy the entry level position, you also destroy the pipeline that creates senior engineers, a shortage of which is used as leverage to increase H1B in America.

Can you say more about why you are resistant to unionization

I was getting a fat raise every year. I didn't think I needed it from a first principle.

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#273

Post by cccbbbaaa »

throw93949444 wrote: post #210
some_random wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "marketplace of ideas" wikipedia is not wikipedia, that's twitter or maybe reddit. More importantly, your theory of copyright being unwaivable without an employee-employer relationship makes the entire internet unworkable. Nothing could accept user input of any kind unless it can be ruled uncopyrightable.

Just link original author, and do notndestroy their work, even copyleft license wikipedia uses demands that!

Authors and revisions are available in the history tab. Editing an article is permitted by the license.

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#274

Post by dofm »

bpt3 wrote: post #270
dofm wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure how it can be "likely factually wrong" that you are better off without paying a third party who does very little for you as an individual who is above average in your field than you would be if you didn't have that money. Do you not purchase insurance? Same principle. Collective bargaining and buying power unlocks things even you, a wealthy above average human, might wish to have affordable. > Why shou…

So it's insurance against some nebulous, unspecified catastrophe that if it comes to fruition, unions will be effectively powerless to stop anyway. If that's the best case you can make, they're even more useless to skilled workers than I thought. Would you like to buy some insurance against aliens destroying the earth as well?

This comment is much more revealing about you than I think you realise, but it's good to know at least that there's no point in wasting time on arguing things on the merits.

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#275

Post by cccbbbaaa »

some_random wrote: post #188
throw93949444 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is like 50 page agreement, you even have to give up your copyright rights! The only way to do it legally in my country, is to hire editor as an employee!!! (Contractors can not legally give up copyright to their work) https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Policy:Terms_of_Use

Have you ever read the ToS/ToU of any social media site? Did you know that by using this site you've agreed to arbitration? https://www.ycombinator.com/legal/#tou Giving up copyright when you write an article for Wikipedia is literally the only way it could possibly work. The biggest issue Wikimedia has is its full time staff, followed by full time editors.

There is no copyright assignment on wikipedia. You are required to license your work under CC-BY-SA 4.0, so the WMF can distribute it, and other editors can reuse and modify it.

More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#276

Post by AnthonyMouse »

psychoslave wrote: post #253
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unions are the only defense that workers have. If there are no unions, the employer can have their pick among desperate job seekers, and give them the lowest wage they can live on. The major other defense is competition. If there were infinitely many workers then unions would be useless to begin with, because employers would just let them walk out and hire someone else. Individuals can likewise use the fact that la…

>The major other defense is competition. Yes. As sure as the casino fear the competition among players in games on which they unilaterally set the rules.

The key is to make sure it remains practical for players who feel slighted to open their own casino.

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#277

Post by yreg »

malfist wrote: post #200
changoplatanero wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s in the collective best interest may not match with what’s in the individual best interest. Perhaps unions are more likely to be in the self interest of the below average employees, the ones with no negotiating power. The best school teachers are almost certainly being held back by their unions and the worst ones are getting a free pass. When I worked at a unionized place I was blocked from an opportunity my em…

> What’s in the collective best interest may not match with what’s in the individual best interest. The alternative isn't what is in your best interest, but what is in your boss's best interest

The mutual interest of me + 'my boss' might very well outweight my fraction of the collective interest. It certainly depends.

Also, if you are in ESOP that might change the equation as well.

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#278

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Wololooo wrote: post #64
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> safety nets should be built not only when you are speeding towards the ground, and often lack the resources, but much before that, when you are safe Safety nets cost time and resources to build and come at the cost of agility. They shouldn’t be avoided at all costs. But a foundation in an industry where unions aren’t the norm taking that step can correctly be interpreted as a sign management fucked up. Given the fo…

Unions are a normal thing to happen to guarantee a check of balances, we are used to systems they have their feedback loop, if you have a one sided relationship you cannot have balance because one side will always try to push in their direction. The tug between management and unions is the balance. If you consider that safety is something that is impeding, you have never truly worked at scale nor considered what happ…

> Unions are a normal thing to happen

Most jobs on the planet are non-union. Most jobs historically are non-union. Describing that as “a normal thing” ignores the amount of effort they take to erect and maintain.

> The tug between management and unions is the balance

The fundamental tug is between capital and labour. Management intermediates, normally, capital. (Owner managers are the exception.) Labour can be intermediated by agents and/or unions, though they’re far from “normal.” (More common is owner-management of labour, e.g. in small trades.)

> If you consider that safety is something that is impeding

Straw man.

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#279

Post by Nifty3929 »

functionmouse wrote: post #170
JdeBP wrote: post #90

This is the same press release from the union as at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48663861 , and the same discussion points apply as there, including the fact that the press release is conflating 'Wikipedia Workers' and 'British-based employees at the Wikimedia Foundation'. The two are not the same. This conflation appears to be the fault of the union. Certainly the people who write Wikipedia well know the dif…

I used to work at a call center for a large (fortune 500) company. But that company did not sign my paychecks. It was a shell company with a different name, so that the company could not be held accountable when someone inevitably jumped from the roof. Since then accountability sinks have stood out to me. I'm going to side with the Union on this one. And plus, unions are good.

Speaking of keeping separate things separate: remember that Unions (a business in it's own right) is different from the Union Workers that it represents.

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#280

Post by arrrg »

simianwords wrote: post #103
arrrg wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It‘s the exact opposite of selfish. It’s solidarity and efforts to denigrate solidarity and lift up stories about selfishness as the only important thing are the thing that keeps unions down. Workers working together in solidarity is the right approach to get more power in the lopsided power dynamic between owners and workers. Owners have too much power, workers too little. Solidarity is a path towards fixing that.

You think it’s solidarity with the workers because you see it is a fight between two classes. I reject that framework itself. Unions are about solidarity (if any) for the incumbents and in this case it is solidarity for the existing workers in Wikimedia. I don’t see anything virtuous about self preservation. It doesn’t take much for a person to save their own job. What’s virtuous is the ability to do understand the f…

This is such a sad perspective.

The only path for workers to have leverage against capital is if they work together in solidarity. There is no other path. Unions are a path towards achieving that.

Doing a job at a lower wage is giving up leverage and nonsensical on its face. But makes sense that this capital perspective is taken here …

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