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The room the economy can't see

wilsoniumite.com

271–280 of 296 posts

Re: The room the economy can't see

#271
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"this isn’t possible anymore because of property prices"

Well, ok, but then how are property prices artificially driven up by planning restrictions? Is this just about not allowing more compact housing like condos or high-rises?

The key to understanding all of this is that a huge set of Americans 'want' to pay more as an exclusionary benefit.

With section 8 (fed housing welfare) rules, any multifamily structure has a better than not chance of becoming slum housing in a time frame less than the average span of homeownership.

Which is both about property values and not wanting to live in/near section 8 residents.

"Planning" and zoning aren't the problem, they're the enforcement mechanism. (Since police and other public enforcement of quality of life issues has been all but neutered in the name of equity/civil-rights/whatever.)

Same reason for the seemingly inexplicable popularity of HOAs that everyone seems to hate.

High prices are one of many resultant 'enforcement' prongs.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#272
post #75
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is mostly written by llm. “narrower” and “I want to put a fence here” hedging, etc. This is very 4.8. Maybe llm that has been somewhat massaged by a human to sound less ai.

I wonder if you may be seeing ghosts? At least to me, this sounded so clearly like an authentic human voice, at least the parts I've read (haven't finished yet). This strikes me as the good writing that LLMs very poorly try to model (or have been forced into through brutal fine-tuning), and I think we should be cautious not to miss the distinction. I don't suppose you're someone who tends to dislike metaphorical flou…

It has very human aspects, such as the beginning. So people switch off. And then it has long stretches where it is bulked up by claude and opus-4.8’s obsession with “honestly true,” “narrower” claims, how concepts “rhyme” etc.

I guess it is also possible this person has internalized claude, but I think their writing pattern is: short pieces: fully human voice; long pieces: ai-supported.

As to my personal views, I am sad to have lost the emdash and the antithesis, among other things, to the llm-cliche dustbin.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#273
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Churches are funded by donations, not sales. They're a prime example of what the article is talking about.

The article is drawing a contrast between the market vs the state funding things. Donations are part of the market from that perspective. They don't stem from the state.

You didn't read far enough.

> Three: teach the economy to do it on its own. This is the one I actually want. Instead of the state hand-picking which good rooms deserve a cheque, you change the rule underneath, so that the people who would run the rooms can simply afford to.

He's talking here about giving people enough economic breathing room that they can afford to donate.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#274
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the one without a steering wheel could be autonomous How silly, even autonomous vehicles have steering. They may be built without the wheel, but they have some kind of steering mechanism > or the place you want to get to is in a completely straight line from where you start I hope your wheels never lose alignment and that you're pointed exactly where you want to go at the start. It's not a weird example at all if y…

The OP specifically referenced a steering wheel as it relates to weight, so that is what I went off of. Try to not overthink things.

Any steering mechanism adds weight. You haven't removed the problem.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you meant to save retirement money if not the market? Not sure the European model of kicking the can down the road is better.. It seems like the problem is more that urban boomers/genx/millenials didn’t want more than one or two kids… which is the central thesis here, why does having four kids suck in cities. Which i think historically has always been true. So its just an unsolved problem across time and sp…

Historically, before the twentieth century, the way it was mostly done was by living in extended families, and prehistorically, by living in small tribes. The whole family (grandparents, parents, aunts and uncles, and their children) worked together to take care of the family (or as I said, the tribe). It was the nuclear family and individualism, driven I'm guessing by economic forces, that destroyed all that.

Was that true historically in urban environments or just in the countryside?

Re: The room the economy can't see

#276
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t follow. Your first sentence says you do not care about trash incinerators, presumably next to your house. Your second sentence says you care about the smell. Trash incinerators are very smelly. You are contradicting yourself. I don’t get it.

But if someone invented a new type that didn't smell, it should be allowed. Regulate consequences, not causes. The power substation down the road is disguised as a brick house, because the rule was ultimately about maintaining the look of the area and not about forbidding power substations.

Regulating consequences comes with a unmanageable increase in oversight by pushing the burden of proof onto understaffed, underfunded, and in some cases non-existent oversight bureaus, many of which are also subject to partisan political manipulation. This is literally the same mechanism that has permitted countless toxic substances to be pushed into the retail stream as responsibility for proof-of-safety is placed on underfunded government agencies instead of the manufacturer with no bottleneck to putting the product on the market. So while the idea might appeal to some ideologies it falls on it's face more or less instantly upon introduction to the real world.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#277
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article spends a good deal of time making the point that these rooms are getting more scarce since people can't afford to volunteer their time .

People below or near the poverty line can occasionally be found volunteering. I think it speaks more about what people value, how they value their time. How many people can’t afford an hour a week? An hour a month? There is almost always some unhealthy activity that takes up at least an hour of your time a month, why not substitute?

i think a big factor is also how you earn your income. if you have a badly paid but regular job and or even if you are unemployed but know that you can't find a job then you can use time when you are not working for other activities. on the other hand if you work as an uber driver or other gig job then every hour on the job counts and you are not going to volunteer time unless you are earning enough so that you feel you can afford it. how much that relates to your income depends on your lifestyle. and that also depends on what you were used to growing up.

i can't think of any volunteering opportunity that only takes an hour unless it is something you can do at home or nearby. otherwise you also have to consider travel times, getting ready, etc. any activity no matter how short usually cost me a full afternoon or evening.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#278
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids don’t even play outside anymore and I don’t think it’s because the market took away third spaces I agree with this, but I think it reinforces GP's point that what's missing is time : slack in the day. I grew up playing outside with all the neighborhood kids, and the critical enabler was that there were always adults around during the after-school hours. Not actively hanging out with us, or even closely supervi…

I don’t know if I can come to that conclusion. Certainly there some grain of a truth there but even when the parents are home kids are not out exploring. At least in America there is an obsession for experience maxing with kids. I don’t know if it’s a time problem or a shift in attitudes.

You're right about there being a change of attitude, particularly in the direction of mis-perceived risk - we see that in surveys about fear of crime relative to actual crime statistics - which makes parents way more leery about sending their kids outside to play on their own.

I think that's a huge mistake: there are child-development studies that suggest that it's important for kids to engage in (moderately) risk-taking play in order to develop accurate assessments of their own skills and calibrate their own internal risk models; other studies suggest that it's helpful for children's social development to spend time playing independently (of adults) in age-diverse groups of other kids. My opinion is that the parents who (e.g.) follow their kids around the playground, making sure they don't fall down and settling every squabble, are not being helpful - though not doing that sure got me dirty looks from other parents!

So, that's where at least some of the "kids aren't exploring outside" effect comes from. My own (GenX / "latchkey" / elder-millennial) cohort was arguably under-patented; now we ourselves have over-corrected with our kids. Maaaybe the idea that at-home entertainment is today more compelling or convenient has something to do with it, but I don't know: my generation was plenty compelled by TV and 8-bit Nintendo. I think we'd have spent just as much time on those as kids today spend on whatever they do on their devices now.

However, I think the primary drivers are:

1.) Fewer kids around, both per-capita and (related, but separable) per geographical area: you can't have a spontaneous neighborhood "gang" when other kids don't live nearby. Declining birth rates and increased sprawl force parents to be more involved in their kids' social lives, as transportation to / organizers of scheduled activities and formalized "play-dates". (Of course, this only increases the time-pressure on parents, and makes it even more difficult to imagine having more kids. It's a vicious cycle.)

2.) As you say, experience-maxxing. Some of this is great: parents in general seem to be way more (emotionally healthily!) involved in their kids lives than my parents' generation ever were.

(But one example: I think my parents might have attended one or two of my Little League or high school baseball games, ever. It didn't hurt my feelings at all: parents mostly didn't, and we kids mostly thought the families who came every time were kinda weird, and were a bit embarrassed for the teammates whose parents showed up. Today, I love how much support my kid and his peers receive at their games. It's fantastic. [Coming to watch practice though? Nah. That's a little too helicoptery. Parents, don't do that, unless you're volunteering to help coach the team.])

On the other hand, I think a lot of the other efforts parents make - structuring every afternoon and family weekend around doing something kid-friendly - isn't such a good thing: kids need a little boredom and a bit of independence to spark their creativity. But... For time-pressed parents, who genuinely and rightly crave interaction with their kids, those hours are precious: that's all the time you get, so the temptation to over-schedule is strong.

I think both of those factors reduce down (in large part) to time pressure. Having to work or train longer, and on top of that having to have more than one income, to be financially stable increases the (fractional) time investment, and then all of it compounds.

It's not a simple answer, but I think higher wages, better social and societal support for families, and denser built environments would all help to pull societies away from the current equilibrium. Developed countries are all well below replacement birth rates, while at the same time surveys indicate that most women have fewer children than they'd "ideally" want. There's something off kilter in the way we're living our lives, and I think it's downstream of the economic system we've collectively built.

(Sorry to hit you with these walls of text. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this since becoming a parent.)

Re: The room the economy can't see

#279

One fundamental challenge with basic income that gets overlooked is that if you’re a smart person and you’ve built a career where you make a lot of money, you have cash flow issues that prevent you from going to basic income. It’s a huge sacrifice that requires drastic quality of life changes which means the people who will be subsisting on that aren’t the people who have the motivation to set up that room nor are ne…

since the past few decades china was neither violent nor repressive to the average person living there. it also can't afford to much of that because unhappy people are more likely to revolt. so the goal is to keep people happy. a big factor in the past decades was to enable people to accumulate more wealth. before that it was through controlling information. but as the chinese get a better life, controlling information is less and less necessary since life outside of china is no longer as attractive and thus no longer causes chinese to question their own situation.

you have cash flow issues that prevent you from going to basic income. It’s a huge sacrifice that requires drastic quality of life changes which means the people who will be subsisting on that aren’t the people who have the motivation to set up that room nor are necessarily going to be people you want running it.

that's a transition problem only for those who are used to make a lot of money. people who grew up subsisting on basic income will not have a problem here. but it seems you misunderstand UBI. because UBI gets paid in addition to the money you earn, not instead of it.

paying everyone the same regardless of their work is not UBI. money earned from work you get to keep on top of UBI. there is no sacrifice to be made, unless you are talking about a situation where people can't find work anymore. but people who can't find work are going to suffer regardless. UBI only helps to soften the blow.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI is in addition to whatever you can make from a wage and the B stands for not very high, just barely high enough to live.

My point is that it doesn’t solve the room problem outlined in the post - someone who’s just relying on UBI isn’t going to be motivated to create this space because the space will exist regardless, they get UBI either way. That’s why the funding is necessary - it creates a market need through the coercion of pay. UBI will not magically incentivize self organization of social goods, only give marginally more freedom f…

there is no need for magic. it only takes a small part of the population that is motivated enough to get something going. education in the right direction is enough to instill that motivation.
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