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Lines of code got a better publicist

curlewis.co.nz

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Re: Lines of code got a better publicist

#271

Post by preg_match »

fzeroracer wrote: post #210
bitwize wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI is the new cloud. There's no market for people or companies who aren't committed to it. If you're a dev who refuses to use AI, no company will hire you; and should a company decide not to use AI they will have a hard time retaining devs (and they will need more devs). Their investors and big-ticket customers will also think twice before signing off on major commitments. So yes, use AI. Don't nitpick the costs and…

> So yes, use AI. Don't nitpick the costs and benefits. The world is headed this way; if you want to develop software for a living and afford to eat, you need to be too. It's really saddening to see software engineers throw out all critical thinking and innovation out the window to behave like sheep and follow the trend line. The industry was trailblazed by people that refused to do just that and the same is going to…

Yes but most people aren’t trailblazers, they’re horribly average and just want to get by. This includes me.

This industry is hostile. You need a self preservationist mindset if you want long term success. Or, at least, it feels that was for someone who isn’t absurdly talented, wealthy, or connected. So, for now, we put our head down and be good little cogs.

I think of it this way. In a company with a good culture, I will build a rapport with my management and give my honest opinions. In a company with a bad culture, I just nod along and say “uh huh yeah yes sir what a great idea!” Because I know that’s it’s gonna get pushed through no matter what I say, and my opinions will only serve to hurt me.

And, right now, tech, or even America, is like one big company with a rotten, rotten culture.

Re: Lines of code got a better publicist

#272

Post by davenz »

davidclark wrote: post #69

>The difference this time is pace: you could delay adopting “the cloud” for a couple of years and survive. With AI you might get a few months. It is weird that the author seems to understand that the pro-AI claims made by AI companies about the product’s necessity are not falsifiable, but then backtracks with “woah woah woah but don’t think I’m anti-AI.” How is the assertion above any more rigorous than the productiv…

Hey, author here. Fair criticism (and thanks for reading!). What I was reaching for with the "few months" claim wasn't about company-survival, rather individual practice. I didn't make that clear enough (I actually did write this, not "AI-slop it" as some elsewhere have suggested, so maybe I got "human-sloppy" by the end).

You're right that I don't back up the "woah woah woah" bit with any evidence, but I do stand by the sentiment that I think people should use AI; experiment, find the ways it can help you (I've found that there's a huge spectrum even among similar engineers, in terms of how they get value from it). Trying the tools properly costs you almost nothing, and "adopt deliberately, measure with the boring battle-tested stuff" is not the same position as "adopt or die".

Re: Lines of code got a better publicist

#273

Post by preg_match »

nlitened wrote: post #176
palmotea wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's rephrase: labor is used to ultimately provide owners more money than they put in. I'd rephrase that: labor is used to provide the owners the maximum amount of money they can manage to extract from the people doing the labor. A technology 10x's worker productivity? That means 9x more goes to the owners, and 0 x (zero) more goes to the workers. Maybe the workers get even less , because now you can fire some. >…

> A more equitable distribution of company profits does not imply the company loses money. It does not imply useless make-work jobs. I fully agree, and remind you it's completely legal and simple for you to go and start a company that does equitable distribution of company profits. More people should do it instead of complaining that few people do.

Nobody does it because the incentives make it impossible. If you do this, then you just lose. Because everyone else will be doing it, so you’ll get pushed out.

Think of it this way: if slavery was legal, would anyone be running a fair labor farm? Maybe, for like a week, before they’re out of business.

Or, consider this: at any point in time, any of the tobacco company could have made nicotine-free cigarettes. But they never did. Why not? Because it’s a fundamentally impossible position to hold.

Now, this is very reductive, I admit. There is a niche for appealing to people’s conscience. But that niche is a luxury, and luxury goods don’t perform well in a tight economy. And, luxury goods will never have the breadth of the staples.

Re: Lines of code got a better publicist

#274

Post by cyberrock »

SCdF wrote: post #76

It is endlessly... amusing (?) to me, that we as a community spent decades trying to make it clear that our productivity is not easily measured because what we're doing is complicated and long running, only for AI to come along and suddenly LoC, Nx multipliers, tickets / week etc are held up as useful if not objective measurements. The reasons we rejected LoC and other measurements have not changed (broadly: code out…

>we as a community spent decades trying to make it clear that our productivity is not easily measured

Did we? All I saw the last decade was increasing worship of the Github activity grid, from both engineers and non-engineers. IMHO the bazaar had already lost its way before this.

Re: Lines of code got a better publicist

#275

Post by davenz »

dakiol wrote: post #98

>The difference this time is pace: you could delay adopting “the cloud” for a couple of years and survive. With AI you might get a few months. I don't think so. Take a good company A (with a good product and a good pace of good features) of today. Take the extreme case they decide not to use AI at all. Well, they will still be shipping good features at their current pace. No amount of AI will make a bad company ship…

Hi, author here. You're absolutely right! (yes, Claude-pun, I'll see myself out...) - I mean, I agree that Company A will remain "good", and may not need to worry about Company B. If that came across in the post then it was unintentional.

A lot of the criticism I've seen here could probably be addressed by me clarifying that no, I don't think AI should be blindly adopted, and no I don't think it adds efficiency or productivity by just existing and being "used". It needs thoughtful implementation, and each developer I know or manage or have chatted to uses it subtly differently, hence why I encouraged experimentation and trial-and-error, because when it "clicks" for you, then in essentially every case I've experienced or seen first hand, its added something (whether rigor, speed, efficiency, capability, etc).

Re: Lines of code got a better publicist

#276

Post by davenz »

ajd555 wrote: post #42
ajd555 wrote: post #20

Confusing skeptic and sceptic will never not be funny to me (edit: I now live in shame)

Damn it - well, I'll never live this one down, I'll learn to shut up next time

Author here. I think this was my favourite (and favorite) thread. I chuckled. I'm also pretty sure I could find ways to weave "septic" into a post about AI.

Re: Lines of code got a better publicist

#277

Post by davenz »

weakfish wrote: post #52

> But! Hold my beer… in February 2026 METR effectively walked it back : their follow-up estimates flipped to a speedup (with error bars wide enough to ride a Moto Guzzi, with panniers, through!), and they abandoned the study design entirely - because developers now refuse to work without AI, and can’t reliably self-report time on agentic work. Their latest position: AI probably speeds developers up in 2026, and we ca…

Author here. Thanks, this is a useful addition I'd missed. The 40-point overestimate from their early-2025 work is exactly why I read METR's current position as "we can no longer cleanly measure this" rather than "AI definitely speeds you up now"; self-reports are doing a lot of load-bearing work in every direction, including in my own sense of my productivity.

Re: Lines of code got a better publicist

#278

Post by davenz »

panny wrote: post #86

Another AI slop article urging me to use AI on the orange AI fanboy site which has guidelines against AI slop comments, but AI slop submissions, that's just fine I reckon... Screenshot since the share button demands I have some social media login. https://imgur.com/a/UW15xVE

Hey, author here. My AI overlord advised me not to engage with this comment, but I don't like being told what to do.

I don't know what the reference to "orange AI fanboy site" is, sorry, but I do find it interesting that what I assume is an AI-writing-detection-site pegged it as 100% AI written. Obviously folks will believe what they believe, but just to satisfy myself I will state that I used AI (Claude Fable 5) to help with research by suggesting and then summarising articles, then interviewing me both as a supporter and detractor to really solidify my position (essentially arguing/debating with the AI), and then it suggested the post layout (funnily enough including that specific subheading "Why I actually care", which I will concede sounds AI-as-hell), but I then wrote everything else. I did paste in any quotes and specific numbers (which that section has quite a few of), and I did then do a final pass with AI (both Fable, and then ChatGPT) to pick up spelling, grammatical issues, formatting, etc. Anyway, have a good weekend and thanks for reading. :)

Re: Lines of code got a better publicist

#279

Post by SCdF »

cyberrock wrote: post #274
SCdF wrote: post #76

It is endlessly... amusing (?) to me, that we as a community spent decades trying to make it clear that our productivity is not easily measured because what we're doing is complicated and long running, only for AI to come along and suddenly LoC, Nx multipliers, tickets / week etc are held up as useful if not objective measurements. The reasons we rejected LoC and other measurements have not changed (broadly: code out…

>we as a community spent decades trying to make it clear that our productivity is not easily measured Did we? All I saw the last decade was increasing worship of the Github activity grid, from both engineers and non-engineers. IMHO the bazaar had already lost its way before this.

I had seen, up until LLMs, posts in this theme: https://dannorth.net/blog/the-worst-programmer/ pretty regularly. This one was only a few years ago!

Maybe we run in different circles. Or did, anyway.

Re: Lines of code got a better publicist

#280

Post by mrandish »

prodigycorp wrote: post #181
JackFr wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upvoter here. Nothing special -- I like Claude a lot. I found it more ergonomic to work with, and I think its models are state of the art. I believe I'm more productive especially in legacy crufty codebases. I may not be representative of the universe or have a controlled, randomized study to back it up, but that's not what upvotes are for are they?

That's a fair point. To play devils advocate to myself, it's possible that the huge upvote share is due to a much bigger marketshare among our community.

Yeah, that was my guess too. Still a little disappointing to see fellow HNers reflexively fanboying a company that's the overwhelming dominate player in LLM coding.

I try to reserve my reflexive fanboy company/project votes for underdogs who need and deserve the help.

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