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Israel escalates attacks on medics in Lebanon with deadly 'quadruple tap'

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Re: Israel escalates attacks on medics in Lebanon with deadly 'quadruple tap'

#271
Hacker News is so unserious.

'The middle east is unstable because colonizers created arbitrary boarders forcing ethnic groups together into unsustainable nation structures with unsustainable ethnic tensions inside the boarders'

'Israel MUST return to pre 1967 boarders and must live with ethnicities that as a common political platform call for the death of all jews. Israel cannot consider stability/unsustainable ethnic tension when forming its borders but must use arbitrary boarders and assume ethnic tension will magically disappear in their situation ignoring the reality of hwo that has worked for neighboring countries. Also Israel is racist/ethnosupremecist for recognizing the realities of borders/ethnicities that we ourselves recognize in our previous statements about the borders created in the middle east by European colonizers'

Re: Israel escalates attacks on medics in Lebanon with deadly 'quadruple tap'

#272

Hacker News is so unserious. 'The middle east is unstable because colonizers created arbitrary boarders forcing ethnic groups together into unsustainable nation structures with unsustainable ethnic tensions inside the boarders' 'Israel MUST return to pre 1967 boarders and must live with ethnicities that as a common political platform call for the death of all jews. Israel cannot consider stability/unsustainable ethni…

If Israel cannot coexist with its neighbours then why plant it in this particular area of the world in the first place? Why not take part of Germany, the country which actually slaughtered millions of jews. Why do the Arabs have to pay the price of something they're not responsible for?

Imagine the opposite: an Arab group was planted to occupy part of Europe, occasionally gets into wars with its neighbours, and builds one of the largest weapons arsenals in the world, including nukes. How would Europeans feel about that?

Re: Israel escalates attacks on medics in Lebanon with deadly 'quadruple tap'

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive which was activated in Oct 7. It is simply killing own people and solidiers to avoid capture.

The Hannibal Directive - the IDF's infamous "murder-suicide" pact, where in Israel's polity can take a decision to sacrifice their own civilians and soldiers to prevent them from being taken hostage by their enemies. In fact, it is now slowly being revealed that many of the so-called Hamas "savagery" that were hyped up by Israel and the western media about the killed civilians and soldiers were actually the result of…

The HRC report does not say this: "227. The Commission verified information indicating that, in at least two other cases, Israeli Security Forces counter-offensive actions resulted in harm to and the killing of Israeli civilians and, in one of the cases, the actions were undertaken with clear knowledge of this risk. According to the Commission’s investigation, in these two cases at least 14 Israeli civilians were likely killed as a result of Israeli Security Forces fire: one woman was killed by helicopter fire while being taken from kibbutz Nir Oz to Gaza by militants78 and the other 13 were likely killed by tank shelling and crossfire in kibbutz Be’eri."

The Hannibal Directive is supposed to prevent kidnappings, in a similar vein as "the US does not negotiate with terrorists". Say what you want about it, but it's not borne from Israel's callousness towards its own people, it's borne from facing truly monstrous enemies.

Finally, and I know the odds of this succeeding are real low, I implore you to do what you can to get out of what seems like a Marxist/Leninist Israel/Palestine absolutist hole you're in. I don't know you or your background, and I don't know if my read here is correct. But sourcing "electronicintifada" and "wsws" (straight up propaganda outlet and ML rag) or claiming elsewhere that Biden/Democrats would have supported Israel's attack on Iran (not even Israel thinks this, and the evidence is they didn't do it under Biden) gives me some pretty clear signals. I want to be clear: these people are nuts. MLs are nuts. Pro-Pali antisemites are nuts. (Again if I'm right) you're in the equivalent of thinking ivermectin will get you laid right now, completely off the deep end. Timothy Leary said it best: think for yourself, question authority. Don't be a useful idiot for these evil people.

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies...

Re: Israel escalates attacks on medics in Lebanon with deadly 'quadruple tap'

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Hannibal Directive - the IDF's infamous "murder-suicide" pact, where in Israel's polity can take a decision to sacrifice their own civilians and soldiers to prevent them from being taken hostage by their enemies. In fact, it is now slowly being revealed that many of the so-called Hamas "savagery" that were hyped up by Israel and the western media about the killed civilians and soldiers were actually the result of…

The HRC report does not say this: "227. The Commission verified information indicating that, in at least two other cases, Israeli Security Forces counter-offensive actions resulted in harm to and the killing of Israeli civilians and, in one of the cases, the actions were undertaken with clear knowledge of this risk. According to the Commission’s investigation, in these two cases at least 14 Israeli civilians were lik…

> The use of such “Hannibal” strikes are confirmed in a UN report published in June. - Fire from Israeli helicopters, drones, tanks and even ground troops was deliberately undertaken in order to prevent Palestinian fighters from taking live Israeli captives who could be exchanged for Palestinian prisoners.

> The HRC report does not say this: "227. The Commission verified information indicating that, in at least two other cases, Israeli Security Forces counter-offensive actions resulted in harm to and the killing of Israeli civilians and, in one of the cases, the actions were undertaken with clear knowledge of this risk. According to the Commission’s investigation, in these two cases at least 14 Israeli civilians were likely killed as a result of Israeli Security Forces fire: one woman was killed by helicopter fire while being taken from kibbutz Nir Oz to Gaza by militants78 and the other 13 were likely killed by tank shelling and crossfire in kibbutz Be’eri."

Really? What's the factual difference between the two statements? What EI wrote is a terse summary from the report confirming the fact that the IDF killed its own civilians. Other evidence, including from Israel's own Defence Minister confirms that the IDF were told to execute the Hannibal Directive (which is an order to kill their own people). There's no stretch in relating the two.

"The US does not negotiate with terrorists" doesn't mean that they also prioritise killing their own soldiers or citizens, as the first line of defensive or offensive tactics.

And your attempts to paint me as some left-based extremist / conspiracist, due to the sources cited, is both ludicrous and laughable. I am an Indian, and Gandhi politically united us Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs etc by teaching us to recognise the extremists / religious fundamentalists amongst us, who only political thrive in fostering hatred, enmity and violence between communities. That is why we remain a secular nation. And aren't a communist nation too (as we understand that extremist left- leaders seeks to divide people by class - a different identity politics at play).

Left- or right- doesn't matter, and each have a constructive role to play - the trick is to keep extremism at bay.

Thus, I don't see Israeli Jews committing genocide against Palestinians or the Lebanese. What I see is the depravity of Israeli right-wing Jewish religious fundamentalists relishing in the blood-lust of slaughtering Palestinian and Lebanese women, children and the old simply because they are Arab Muslims and Christians, who refuse to leave the land where they were born. We ordinary human beings are not capable of such depravity, only the extremists are. Hitler did the same too - while the west has white-washed it, the Nazis where driven as much by Christian fundamentalism (as they were by the Eugenics) in creating the "us vs them" political narration of hate and violence. Netanyahu's politics is not so different from Hitler's or the Nazis today.

And just as Hitler's perverted Christian Nazism has nothing to do with Christianity as practiced by the ordinary Christians, Netanyahu's own perverted fundamentalist version of Jewish Fascism has nothing to do with Judaism of the ordinary Jews. Netanyahu's Jewish religious fundamentalism that drives the Israeli-right and the Islamic fundamentalism that drives the Palestinian-right are two faces of the same coin. Get rid of both, and the politics of hatred and violence in the region have a real chance to end.

Re: Israel escalates attacks on medics in Lebanon with deadly 'quadruple tap'

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The HRC report does not say this: "227. The Commission verified information indicating that, in at least two other cases, Israeli Security Forces counter-offensive actions resulted in harm to and the killing of Israeli civilians and, in one of the cases, the actions were undertaken with clear knowledge of this risk. According to the Commission’s investigation, in these two cases at least 14 Israeli civilians were lik…

> The use of such “Hannibal” strikes are confirmed in a UN report published in June. - Fire from Israeli helicopters, drones, tanks and even ground troops was deliberately undertaken in order to prevent Palestinian fighters from taking live Israeli captives who could be exchanged for Palestinian prisoners. > The HRC report does not say this: "227. The Commission verified information indicating that, in at least two o…

> Really? What's the factual difference between the two statements? What EI wrote is a terse summary from the report confirming the fact that the IDF killed its own civilians.

No, what EI wrote is: "Hundreds of Israelis were likely killed by Israel itself in “Hannibal” targeting incidents as well as unintentional crossfire."

This is wrong, and also propaganda. Why would they do this? Think for yourself, question authority.

> We ordinary human beings are not capable of such depravity, only the extremists are.

There aren't enough extremists to do the truly abhorrent things. They need help from others, so they use tools like propaganda and coercion. Think for yourself, question authority.

I'm not here to defend the Likud party. I think what Israel prosecuted in the wake of the October 7th attacks was a genocide. But I do the next thing, which is learn the history and analyze a variety of sources with different incentives to get as clear a picture as possible, in hopes of not becoming a useful idiot for evil. Not everyone can do this, I understand. But I agree with 90% of what you wrote--you're clearly pretty smart and motivated, so I think you can.

Also apply think for yourself, question authority to me! Why would I do this? Am I a Zionist psyop? Am I virtue signaling on what I think is an influential message board? Am I ignoring my wife in a vain attempt at making the world a better place, which is something like the shadow of narcissism or the fear of irrelevancy?

Re: Israel escalates attacks on medics in Lebanon with deadly 'quadruple tap'

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously trying to revise taxation of other religions into an “alternative” when it clearly was meant to discriminate and oppress them? The Quran literally says the jizya is about fighting those who don’t believe in “god”, to subdue them. You are spreading revisionist misinformation, but it’s also so obvious and easy to disprove with a quick search. Why even try to spin it this way?

> The Quran literally says the jizya is about fighting those who don’t believe in “god”, to subdue them Please quote this part from the Quran. I'd like to learn more.

“Fight against those who do not believe in Allāh or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allāh and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth [i.e., Islām] from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.“

https://quran.com/9/29?translations=131%2C20

Re: Israel escalates attacks on medics in Lebanon with deadly 'quadruple tap'

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Quran literally says the jizya is about fighting those who don’t believe in “god”, to subdue them Please quote this part from the Quran. I'd like to learn more.

“Fight against those who do not believe in Allāh or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allāh and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth [i.e., Islām] from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.“ https://quran.com/9/29?translations=131%2C20

Notice the four characteristics mentioned here (all of them must be satisfied):

- do not believe in Allāh or in the Last Day

- do not consider unlawful what Allāh and His Messenger have made unlawful

- do not adopt the religion of truth (doesn't necessarily mean Islam, since true Christianity and Judaism believe in one God)

- from those who were given the Scripture. That includes Muslims themselves by the way, since they were given a scripture. Elsewhere in the Quran when it refers to Christians and Jews it says "People of the scripture". In other areas it mentions "Those who were given the scripture", which includes Muslims.

What it essentially says: if you do not follow the law of the land, whether you are a Christian, Jew, or a Muslim, there are consequences. Every nation has laws, and if you break those laws you will be prosecuted. In this case it says those will have to pay a "fine".

Re: Israel escalates attacks on medics in Lebanon with deadly 'quadruple tap'

#278

Hacker News is so unserious. 'The middle east is unstable because colonizers created arbitrary boarders forcing ethnic groups together into unsustainable nation structures with unsustainable ethnic tensions inside the boarders' 'Israel MUST return to pre 1967 boarders and must live with ethnicities that as a common political platform call for the death of all jews. Israel cannot consider stability/unsustainable ethni…

If Israel cannot coexist with its neighbours then why plant it in this particular area of the world in the first place? Why not take part of Germany, the country which actually slaughtered millions of jews. Why do the Arabs have to pay the price of something they're not responsible for? Imagine the opposite: an Arab group was planted to occupy part of Europe, occasionally gets into wars with its neighbours, and build…

That is a completely different argument. I am responding to the people arguing Israel is an outlier/evil because it is an ethno state, should return to arbitrary borders, etc. I am pointing out all the people that say colonial European borders have cause an unstable middle east because they were drawn without consideration of ethnic/cultural tensions. Those people should then support that it is logical for Israel to want intentional borders/internal ethnic/cultural cohesion and that desire/structure is not immoral.

Re: Israel escalates attacks on medics in Lebanon with deadly 'quadruple tap'

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Israel cannot coexist with its neighbours then why plant it in this particular area of the world in the first place? Why not take part of Germany, the country which actually slaughtered millions of jews. Why do the Arabs have to pay the price of something they're not responsible for? Imagine the opposite: an Arab group was planted to occupy part of Europe, occasionally gets into wars with its neighbours, and build…

That is a completely different argument. I am responding to the people arguing Israel is an outlier/evil because it is an ethno state, should return to arbitrary borders, etc. I am pointing out all the people that say colonial European borders have cause an unstable middle east because they were drawn without consideration of ethnic/cultural tensions. Those people should then support that it is logical for Israel to…

What a wonderful idea: "This part of the world is unstable with unsustainable ethnic tension due to the arbitrary borders created by colonizers. Let's ethnically cleanse part of this area and give to jews and put arbitrary borders around it. That will definitely not have consequences."

Re: Israel escalates attacks on medics in Lebanon with deadly 'quadruple tap'

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Fight against those who do not believe in Allāh or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allāh and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth [i.e., Islām] from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.“ https://quran.com/9/29?translations=131%2C20

Notice the four characteristics mentioned here (all of them must be satisfied): - do not believe in Allāh or in the Last Day - do not consider unlawful what Allāh and His Messenger have made unlawful - do not adopt the religion of truth (doesn't necessarily mean Islam, since true Christianity and Judaism believe in one God) - from those who were given the Scripture. That includes Muslims themselves by the way, since…

I don't know Arabic, but I read the English differently. I see "fight against those who X, and those who B, and those who C" as different groups, all of whom one is supposed to fight against.

I find it quite hard to read this passage like you do and see this as evidence of equality of treatment between Muslims and non-Muslims. Even the translator interprets 'religion of truth' to mean Islam.

Plus I think in general you're ignoring the pretty hostile tone of this passage. The jizyah is explicitly intended to be a humiliation ("humbling"). I was skeptical, but I think this passages is strong evidence that the jizyah was intended to "discriminate and oppress" non-Muslims.

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