Live data from Hacker News

The Day the Telnet Died

labs.greynoise.io

271–280 of 414 posts

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#271

Never mind telnetd. Tier 1 transit providers doing port filtering is EXTREMELY alarming. They have partitioned the Internet, and in a way that automatic routing (BGP) can't get around.

> Tier 1 transit providers doing port filtering is EXTREMELY alarming. I was admining a small ISP when blaster and its variants hit. Port filtering 139 and the rest was the easiest way to deal with it, and almost over night most of the ISPs blocked it, and we were better for it. There was a time when if you'd put a fresh XP install on the Internet you'd get 5-10 minutes until it would get restarted. I guess if you're…

Lots of text games - MUDs - still play over telnet using dedicated MUD clients that implement their own telnet stack. Outright blocking the port has an outsized side efffe on them, this is simply not right.

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone attempted to compromise my home router last week using CHARGEN. Can you imagine!

Attempted to compromise, or just port scanned?

Good call-out! Yes, while the router labels it as "DOS Attack" it is probably a simple port-scan!

However, anyone who knows the nature of CHARGEN would recognize that a singular successful connection could immediately blossom into a somewhat lackluster DDOS, as the chargen service risked consuming CPU and network resources unnecessarily.

chargen has been also aggressively deprecated, far more than telnetd, since it was a non-essential service. I'd like to know how many servers are voluntarily running chargen on the public Internet today.

A port-scan for chargen is more likely a comprehensive port-scan that is just attempting to identify and fingerprint anything that may have been established on that port. It would be less surprising to find, like, ssh or a web server occupying that space today.

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#274

Why are people still using telnet across the internet in this century? Was this _all_ attack traffic? (OK, I know one ancient talker that uses it - but on a very non-standard port so a port 23 block wouldn't be relevant)

One reason would be to play MUDs, which are very well and alive these days!

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tier 1 transit providers doing port filtering is EXTREMELY alarming. I was admining a small ISP when blaster and its variants hit. Port filtering 139 and the rest was the easiest way to deal with it, and almost over night most of the ISPs blocked it, and we were better for it. There was a time when if you'd put a fresh XP install on the Internet you'd get 5-10 minutes until it would get restarted. I guess if you're…

Lots of text games - MUDs - still play over telnet using dedicated MUD clients that implement their own telnet stack. Outright blocking the port has an outsized side efffe on them, this is simply not right.

If MUDs and other games were indeed using port 23/tcp for player access, they were not only incorrect but rather dangerous.

Since 23/tcp is a well-known IANA-registered port for the Telnet service, it is an RFC violation to use it for a service that is not telnetd/remote logins via TELNET protocol.

Any port below 1024 signifies that it is a "privileged port". This is an archaic distinction that developed in high-trust R&E networks, but it did signify that the listener on the port had administrative/root access to spawn a service there, so it was kind of a signal that you could "trust" the remote server with your login credentials.

The privileged ports were also priority, because if the unprivileged ones were "first come, first served" for unprivileged users, the administrator would have the ability to enforce the uniqueness of "privileged ports", and disable or kill any process that shouldn't be using one. A MUD Wizard who finds their port in-use (bound) on start is on their own.

Typically there were no MUDs running with, or needing, root privileges. They were run under user accounts, or specific unprivileged role accounts. They had no need of a privileged port, and many were clandestine or unauthorized, and forced to use a higher port number. That's why the 4-digit ports became so popular.

Anyway, the custom has already developed of blocking port 23 to protect users from unwittingly opening a management or login interface. Most shrewd admins would choose a port that isn't routinely blocked and filtered... and port-scanned.

If your favorite MUD runs on port 23 today, such as nethack or something, then I am glad for this change, which will force the administrator to select a unique port that does not imply privilege, TELNET protocol, or shell login credentials. It is totally RFC-compliant to select an unassigned port above 1023, and MUD conventions have popularized several numbers that are still recognizable to players today.

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#276
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would be better suited to use the terms we use for natural languages. A natural language is dead when the last person who learned it as first language dies and are extinct when there is noone that would speak it at all. In these terms, telnet has been dead for a long while, but it's extinct now.

Even that's argued within linguistics. There are languages which survive for generations as secondary languages (especially trade languages as Swahili or Chinook Jargon appear to have been originally). Also some like Latin, Hebrew and Sanskrit which survive for centuries but not as native languages.

Can you cite sources where this is argued?

The wikipedia seems to make a clear definition:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_death

That said, the above article does use extinction and death somewhat interchangably later on, but I suppose it's almost the same for small languages that nobody learns who is not a native speaker.

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#277
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, perhaps we should define “MUD” and your incomplete experience of “most”. As a MUD enthusiast for 37 years, I learned to program in C and Unix through TinyMUD, MUCK, and MUSH derived servers. From the beginning, none of these codebases implemted Telnet. There was nothing but a raw transparent TCP connection. In fact, I facilitated the introduction of a grand innovation: the "port concentrator" system which multip…

> [...] no, I am not confused, because I was giving an example of why the Telnet-implementation, the program, the client, was so inadequate for playing on MUD servers. Then this is at the heart of our disconnect, because the post of mine that you originally replied to --- as well as, unless I drastically misread, the original article under discussion --- was concerned with traffic on port 23, the Telnet protocol port…

in particular it is very rare I find a running diku or lp that does not at least use the telnet ECHO option to attempt to control password display.

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It hasn't for the most part of the last 2 decades.

The telnet client comes with MS Windows, Linux and macOS. The only platforms were you need to install some extra component are Android and iOS.

Many companies have been preventing its execution or removing the package by default for a number of years.

Also most linux containers do not ships with such binaries to save on img size and reduce vuln management overhead.

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#279

What an amazing bug. I probably spent my first 10 years on the internet just using telnet. They were wild times. You could log ethernet traffic and see passwords. Towards the end of those we started to have a few more single-user machines, but the vast majority were old school many many user machines, where "root" was thought to be tightly restricted (of course, even then, in practice it wasn't if you were in the kno…

When did we all stop using telnet? I can't even remember. Most of my first 10-15 years was using telnet. One day I used telnet to connect to a shell for the last time and didn't know it. I had a ton of servers all with root telnet access Internet facing. Never hacked once, somehow. Those were the days.

I worked for an ISP in the mid-90s and had been on the Internet since 1989 or so. I recall the progression for me was something like this:

We used telnet in college no problem. It was a fairly well-accepted method of remote access. The heterogeneous network had many different modes, but a major dialup point was the Annex box, which supported telnet into the Unix or VMS machines.

Between Unix machines, we would often prefer "rlogin" instead. There were several horrific iterations of other remote-access protocols such as "remsh". rlogin was notorious for its "/etc/hosts.equiv" authorization method which trusted DNS and should've been perceived as Swiss Cheese from the outset. rlogin was, IIRC, directly related to rsh and rcp and used the same frameworks. rlogin was no more secure than telnet, but probably less secure because of its conveniences.

We also used port 23/tcp for remote management, for example Cisco routers. They weren't running telnetd, but it was the port where you connected remotely and logged in with or without credentials.

rlogin persisted alongside telnet, until encryption came into fashion and ssh was distributed. Once ssh was available and working well, everyone knew that telnetd and rlogind were on borrowed time. The services were shut down and disabled in inetd. The ports were sometimes blocked. Security advisories went out.

I suppose it took a long, long time for ssh to finally dominate, and for people to abandon telnetd mostly, but it was fairly thorough. We all recognized the superiority of sshd's authentication and encrypted channels.

There were mitigations for people to extend their legacy use of telnetd and rlogind. For example, tcp wrappers and fail2ban could be implemented. Firewall filters could select only authorized networks. VPNs could tunnel through an Intranet that still used them. So, the services lived on wherever they didn't need to be exposed on the public Internet. But I think most Unix admins got the picture by the end of the dot-com bubble.

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of text games - MUDs - still play over telnet using dedicated MUD clients that implement their own telnet stack. Outright blocking the port has an outsized side efffe on them, this is simply not right.

If MUDs and other games were indeed using port 23/tcp for player access, they were not only incorrect but rather dangerous. Since 23/tcp is a well-known IANA-registered port for the Telnet service, it is an RFC violation to use it for a service that is not telnetd/remote logins via TELNET protocol. Any port below 1024 signifies that it is a "privileged port". This is an archaic distinction that developed in high-trus…

They're remote terminal applications? Remote interactive text sessions. Over TELetype NETworking?

You're saying that connecting my tty (emulator), to a remote host is not the purpose of telnet?

Though ... I suppose by now a switch to port 22 could make sense.

Post reply on HN