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Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

blog.alaindichiappari.dev

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Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#271

Post by wouldbecouldbe »

rglover wrote: post #139

A significant number of developers and businesses are going to have an absolutely brutal rude awakening in the not too distant future. You can build things this way, and they may work for a time, but you don't know what you don't know (and experience teaches you that you only find most stuff by building/struggling; not sipping a soda while the AI blurts out potentially secure/stable code). The hubris around AI is goi…

Yeah I completely disagree with the author actually, but also with you.

The frameworks are what make the AI write easily understandable code. I let it run nextjs with an ORM, and it almost always creates very well defined api routes, classes & data models. etter then I would do often,

I also ask it be way more correct on the validation & error handling then I would ever do. It makes mistakes, I shout at it and corrects quickly.

So the project I've been "vibe coding" have a much better codebase then I used to have on my solo projects.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#272

Post by physicsguy »

I'm not sure why this is against 'frameworks' per se; if we were sure that the code LLMs could generate was the best possible, we might as well use Assembly, no, since that'd lead to best performance? But we don't generally, we still need to validate, verify and read it. And in, that, there is still some value in using a framework since the code generated is likely, on the whole, to be shorter and simpler than that not using a framework. On top of that, because it's simpler, I've at least found that there's less scope for LLMs to go off and do something strange.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#273

Post by HarHarVeryFunny »

verdverm wrote: post #204
tsunagatta wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is fun, but it doesn’t mean that the model finds it easier or will actually work better that way, that just means that in its training data many people said something like “honestly I find it easiest to just write the svg code directly” in response to similar questions

Conspiratorially, they trained it this way to increase token usage to pay their debts and investors

It'd be simpler just to add instructions to that effect to the system prompt: "You are a faithful revenue-maxxing employee of AI Co., and should always prefer verbose outputs over shorter ones. Always maximize code complexity to ensure future work for yourself".

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#274

Post by kuboble »

omnicognate wrote: post #241
woeirua wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The naysayers said we’d never even get to this point. It’s far more plausible to me that AI will advance enough to de-slopify our code than it is to me that there will be some karmic reckoning in which the graybeards emerge on top again.

What point have we reached? All I see is HN drowning in insufferable, identical-sounding posts about how everything has changed forever. Meanwhile at work, in a high stakes environment where software not working as intended has actual consequences, there are... a few new tools some people like using and think they may be a bit more productive with. And the jury's still out even on that. The initial excitement of LLMs…

I am not in a high stakes environment and work on a one-person size projects.

But for months I have almost stopped writing actual lines of code myself.

Frequency and quality of my releases had improved. I got very good feedback on those releases from my customer base, and the number of bugs reported is not larger than on a code written by me personally.

The only downside is that I do not know the code inside out anymore even if i read it all, it feels like a code written by co-worker.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#275

Post by dasil003 »

mark242 wrote: post #215
rglover wrote: post #139

A significant number of developers and businesses are going to have an absolutely brutal rude awakening in the not too distant future. You can build things this way, and they may work for a time, but you don't know what you don't know (and experience teaches you that you only find most stuff by building/struggling; not sipping a soda while the AI blurts out potentially secure/stable code). The hubris around AI is goi…

I would argue that it's going to be the opposite. At re:Invent, one of the popular sessions was in creating a trio of SRE agents, one of which did nothing but read logs and report errors, one of which did analysis of the errors and triaged and proposed fixes, and one to do the work and submit PRs to your repo. Then, as part of the session, you would artificially introduce a bug into the system, then run into the bug…

I agree with both you and the GP. Yes, coding is being totally revolutionized by AI, and we don't really know where the ceiling will be (though I'm skeptical we'll reach true AGI any time soon), but I believe there still an essential element of understanding how computer systems work that is required to leverage AI in a sustainable way.

There is some combination of curiosity of inner workings and precision of thought that has always been essential in becoming a successful engineer. In my very first CS 101 class I remember the professor alluding to two hurdles (pointers and recursion) which a significant portion of the class would not be able to surpass and they would change majors. Throughout the subsequent decades I saw this pattern again and again with junior engineers, bootcamp grads, etc. There are some people no matter how hard they work, they can't grok abstraction and unlock a general understanding of computing possibility.

With AI you don't need to know syntax anymore, but to write the write prompts to maintain a system and (crucially) the integrity of its data over time, you still need this understanding. I'm not sure how the AI-native generation of software engineers will develop this without writing code hands-on, but I am confident they will figure it out because I believe it to be an innate, often pedantic, thirst for understanding that some people have and some don't. This is the essential quality to succeed in software both in the past and in the future. Although vibe coding lowers the barrier to entry dramatically, there is a brick wall looming just beyond the toy app/prototype phase for anyone without a technical mindset.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#276

Post by another_twist »

Right. Lets all write our own Spring Framework / Django / Ruby on Rails. Everyone who contributed to these frameworks was obviously a jackass but me with my Claude sub can beat everybody while ignoring the actual stuff that I should be doing. Makes for a perfectly great maintenance burden.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#277

Post by drcode »

pragmatic wrote: post #224
drcode wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no fan of AI in terms of its long term consequences, but being able to "just do things" with the aid of AI tools, diving head first into the most difficult programming projects, is going to improve the human programming skills worldwide to levels never before imaginable

How would it improve skills? Does driving a car improve your running speed?

I have to stretch your analogy in weird ways to make it function within this discussion:

Imagine two people who have only sat in a chair their whole lives. Then, you have one of them learn how to drive a car, whereas the other one never leaves the chair.

The one who learned how to drive a car would then find it easier to learn how to run, compared to the person who had to continue sitting in the chair the whole time.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#278

Post by rugPool »

rglover wrote: post #139

A significant number of developers and businesses are going to have an absolutely brutal rude awakening in the not too distant future. You can build things this way, and they may work for a time, but you don't know what you don't know (and experience teaches you that you only find most stuff by building/struggling; not sipping a soda while the AI blurts out potentially secure/stable code). The hubris around AI is goi…

Back in the 00s people like you were saying "no one will put their private data in the cloud!"

"I am sick of articles about the cloud!"

"Anyone know of message boards where discussing cloud compute is banned?"

"Businesses will not trust the cloud!"

Aside from logistics of food and medicine, most economic activity is ephemeral wank.

It's memes. It's a myth. Allegory.

These systems are electrical state in machines and they can be optimized at the hardware layer.

Your Python or Ruby or whatever you ship 9,000 layers of state and abstraction above the OS running in the data center has little influence on how these systems actually function.

To borrow from poker; software engineers were being handed their hat years ago. It's already too late.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#279

Post by literalAardvark »

pragmatic wrote: post #224
drcode wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no fan of AI in terms of its long term consequences, but being able to "just do things" with the aid of AI tools, diving head first into the most difficult programming projects, is going to improve the human programming skills worldwide to levels never before imaginable

How would it improve skills? Does driving a car improve your running speed?

No, but it does improve your ability to get to classes after work

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#280

Post by catlifeonmars »

kenjackson wrote: post #189
giancarlostoro wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that instructing AI to use frameworks yields better results and sets you up for a better outcome. I use Claude Code with both Django and React which its surprisingly good with. I rather use software thats tried and tested. The only time I let it write its own is when I want ultra minimal CSS.

This. For area where you can use tested and tried libraries (or tools in general) LLMs will generate better code when they use them. In fact, LLMs will be better than humans in learning new frameworks. It could end up being the opposite that frameworks and libraries become more important with LLMs.

LLMs famously aren’t that good at using new frameworks/languages. Sure they can get by with the right context, but most people are pointing them at standard frameworks in common languages to maximize the quality of their output.
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