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TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

nytimes.com

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Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#271

Post by gtowey »

eggy wrote: post #71

I'm skeptical about banning design patterns just because people might overuse them. Growing up, I had to go to the theater to see movies, but that didn't make cliffhangers and sequels any less compelling. Now we binge entire Netflix series and that's fine, but short-form video needs government intervention? The real question is: where do we draw the line between protecting people from manipulative design and respecti…

It's not about banning design patterns. It's about removing the harmful results they produce.

Can you imagine if gambling were allowed to be marketed to children? Especially things like slot machines. We absolutely limit the reach of those "design patterns".

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#272

Post by Quarrelsome »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #262
Quarrelsome wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah that's because we allowed aggressive takeovers, especially leveraged ones. They got replaced by extractive capitalism due to a lack of regulation, not just because "capitalism". The extractive profit seeking entities don't "out-compete" they just use their capital in unregulated conditions to strip mine economies and poison capitalism to become sociopathy. Letting that happen is a choice, letting it continue is…

Yet if you advocate for regulation you are immediately attacked by billionaires and massive companies and people who think those two groups benefit them more than the regulations protecting them. These groups bring unbelievable sums of money to bear to influence policy and public perception to make sure they are as under-regulated as possible. “Regulation” is a four letter word in the US. Look at the hostility we see…

Which is why our democratic systems need to provide solutions because they're places where we still have power. I'm from the UK and an increasing amount of our economy is locked up in exploitive equity extraction, much of it US based. Its really bad in some fields (e.g. care homes, foster homes), where the entities are straddled with such debt that the orgs "have no choice" but to charge sky high rates while paying peanuts. At some point I'm sure it will break and our politicians will "break the rules" in order to reign in private equity and sour their investments.

It used to be the case that we permitted these excesses because they guaranteed our security, but now that recent US governments have shit the bed on that one; there's considerably less of a need to tolerate it.

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#273

Post by coredev_ »

uriahlight wrote: post #116

Europeans really need to get their heads out of their butts. Their solution to every problem is nanny state regulation.

Nah man, I'm glad for you that you live in country X where you do Y instead, but at the same time as an European I'm pretty satisfied regulating big shitty companies

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#274

Post by Quarrelsome »

Jensson wrote: post #265
Quarrelsome wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah that's because we allowed aggressive takeovers, especially leveraged ones. They got replaced by extractive capitalism due to a lack of regulation, not just because "capitalism". The extractive profit seeking entities don't "out-compete" they just use their capital in unregulated conditions to strip mine economies and poison capitalism to become sociopathy. Letting that happen is a choice, letting it continue is…

> The extractive profit seeking entities don't "out-compete" they just use their capital in unregulated conditions to strip mine economies and poison capitalism to become sociopathy So they did out-compete them? You saying they won using unfair ways doesn't change the fact that they out-competed the other companies. Capitalism will use any means available to out compete others, I don't understand why you try to argue…

> So they did out-compete them?

Having more money doesn't necessarily mean "out-compete". Its not that they're delivering a better product, more loyal customers or better branding. Its simply that they put down more capital at a given point, and were allowed to buy the company, despite its owners not wanting to sell. In most cases they didn't even have money, its simply because they obtained significant financing from money brokers by selling them on plans of sociopathy.

> I don't understand why you try to argue against this.

because you're trying to squash this into "capitalism bad". We get to make choices, we're making shit choices. You don't have to upend the whole system to undo these choices, you just have to have the spine to regulate and break up existing structures.

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#275

Post by Jensson »

kylecazar wrote: post #267
Jensson wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The algorithm puts you in control a little bit more. Why not let you choose to get a less addictive algorithm? Older algorithms were less addictive, so its not at all impossible to do this, many users would want this.

They're optimizing for time spent on the platform.

And that is why these algorithms needs to be regulated. People don't want to pick the algorithm that makes them spend the most time possible on their phones, many would want an algorithm that optimizes for quality rather than quantity on the app so they get more time to do other things. But corporations doesn't want to provide that because they don't earn anything from it.

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#276

Post by Quarrelsome »

saubeidl wrote: post #251
Quarrelsome wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but it does that because of US hegemony empowering its equity to be extractive. We've lost a lot of organisations in the UK due to aggressive and leveraged buyouts. That's not necessarily reflective of capitalism as an abstract but geo-political reluctance in regulating its very worst excesses. I appreciate your position but I can't help but feel like it's like saying cars are crap because they breakdown too easily,…

Lenin described this exact process a century ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism,_the_Highest_Stage... The 'choice' is an illusion. To quote Lenin, the state becomes the 'executive committee of the financial oligarchy.' The refusal to regulate isn't a a choice or a policy failure; it's the inevitable outcome of the system .

well my mother was born in the USSR, so I don't have to accept Lenin's position because my people suffered his "inevitable outcome of the system" for the choices he made.

I'd rather fix up this existing system then day dream about a glorious socialist revolution that always seems to end in blood.

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#277

Post by Jensson »

AreShoesFeet000 wrote: post #264
Jensson wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The algorithm puts you in control a little bit more. Why not let you choose to get a less addictive algorithm? Older algorithms were less addictive, so its not at all impossible to do this, many users would want this.

I just don’t think that the addiction is exclusively due to the algorithm. There’s really a lack of affordable varied options for learning trade and entertainment. We say in Portuguese: You shouldn’t throw the baby away along with the water you used to bathe.

I don't see any harm that could come from saying "a less addictive algorithm needs to be available to users"? For example, lets say there is an option to only recommend videos from channels you subscribe to, that would be much less addictive, why isn't that an option? A regulation that forces these companies to add such a feature would only make the world a better place.

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#278

Post by andrei_says_ »

eggy wrote: post #71

I'm skeptical about banning design patterns just because people might overuse them. Growing up, I had to go to the theater to see movies, but that didn't make cliffhangers and sequels any less compelling. Now we binge entire Netflix series and that's fine, but short-form video needs government intervention? The real question is: where do we draw the line between protecting people from manipulative design and respecti…

I'm skeptical about banning sales of tobacco and alcohol products to children because children may (over)use them.

Also do we trust adults prescribed oxytocin to manage their use?

We are speaking of weaponized addiction at planetary scale.

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#279

Post by GorbachevyChase »

wat10000 wrote: post #242
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not wrong, but it's a selective take. The entire economy operates like an addiction machine, using proven psychological techniques to modify individual and collective behaviours and beliefs. It's not just social media. It's gaming, ad tech, marketing, PR, religion, entertainment, the physical design of malls and stores... And many many more. The difference with social media is that the sharp end is automated a…

There's a big difference in terms of frequency and availability. Physical design of stores gets you when you're shopping, then it's done. Organized religion tends to get its hooks into you once or twice a week. Marketing, PR, ads, all sporadic. Social media is available essentially 24/7 and is something you can jump into with just a few seconds of spare time. If more traditional addiction machines are a lottery you c…

I don’t know what personal religious experience you’re speaking from, but my church is a little more oriented toward helping people overcome addictions and personal failings. If you’re in Europe, then I think the messaging in the mosques about consuming alcohol are pretty strict. I can’t speak from firsthand knowledge.

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#280

Post by AreShoesFeet000 »

Jensson wrote: post #277
AreShoesFeet000 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don’t think that the addiction is exclusively due to the algorithm. There’s really a lack of affordable varied options for learning trade and entertainment. We say in Portuguese: You shouldn’t throw the baby away along with the water you used to bathe.

I don't see any harm that could come from saying "a less addictive algorithm needs to be available to users"? For example, lets say there is an option to only recommend videos from channels you subscribe to, that would be much less addictive, why isn't that an option? A regulation that forces these companies to add such a feature would only make the world a better place.

I agree, but what would be the actual mechanism that would allow that? I believe we’re out of ideas. TikTok’s crime was just be firmly successful because of good engineering. There’s no evil sauce apart from promotional content and occasional manipulation, which has nothing to do with the algorithm per se.

And about whitelisting, I honestly don’t think you’re comparing apples to apples. The point of the algorithm is dynamically recommending new content. It’s about discovery.

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