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I miss thinking hard

jernesto.com

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Re: I miss thinking hard

#271

Post by latexr »

jtrn wrote: post #195
hnfong wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I understand what the author is trying to say. We miss thinking "hard" about the small details. Maybe "hard" isn't the right adjective, but we all know the process of coding isn't just typing stuff while the mind wanders. We keep thinking about the code we're typing and the interactions between the new code and the existing stuff, and keep thinking about potential bugs and issues. (This may or may not be "har…

Spot on. It’s the lumberjack mourning the axe while holding a chainsaw. The work is still hard. it’s just different. The friction comes from developers who prioritize the 'craft' of syntax over delivering value. It results in massive motivated reasoning. We see people suddenly becoming activists about energy usage or copyright solely to justify not using a tool they dislike. They will hunt for a single AI syntax erro…

> We see people suddenly becoming activists about energy usage or copyright solely to justify not using a tool they dislike.

Maybe you don’t care about the environment (which includes yourself and the people you like), or income inequality, or the continued consolidation of power in the hands of a few deranged rich people, or how your favourite artists (do you have any?) are exploited by the industry, but some of us have been banging the drum about those issues for decades. Just because you’re only noticing it now or don’t care it doesn’t mean it’s a new thing or that everyone else is being duplicitous. It’s a good thing more people are waking up and talking about those.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#272

Post by charcircuit »

If you are thinking hard I think you are software engineering wrong. Even before AI. As an industry all the different ways of doing things have already played out. Even doing big reactors or performance optimizations often can not be 100% predicted in their effectiveness. You will want to just go ahead and implement these things over spending more time thinking. And as AI gets stronger the just try a bunch of approaches will beat the think hard approach by an even bigger margin.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#274

Post by ccppurcell »

In my experience, the so-called 1% are mostly just thinkers and researchers who have dedicated a lot more time from an earlier age to thinking and/or researching. There are a few geniuses out there but it's 1 in millions not in hundreds.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#275

Post by Cthulhu_ »

pinkgolem wrote: post #267
nielsbot wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there is still a market for artisanal furniture, dishes and clothes most people buy mass-produced dishes, clothes and furniture. I wonder if software creation will be in a similar place. There still might be a small market for handmade software but the majority of it will be mass produced. (That is, by LLM or even software itself will mostly go away and people will get their work done via LLM instead of "apps")

I would argue the opposite.. What you get right now is mass replicated software, just another copy of sap/office/Spotify/whatever That software is not made individually for you, you get a copy like millions of other people and there is nearly no market anymore for individual software. Llms might change that, we have a bunch of internal apps now for small annoying things.. They all have there quirks, but are only acce…

The question is whether that's a good thing or not; software adages like "Not Invented Here" aren't going to go away. For personal tools / experiments it's probably fine, just like hacking together something in your spare time, but it can become a risk if you, others, or a business start to depend on it (just like spare time hacked tools).

I'd argue that in most cases it's better to do some research and find out if a tool already exists, and if it isn't exactly how you want it... to get used to it, like one did with all other tools they used.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#277

Post by satvikpendem »

anavat wrote: post #269
satvikpendem wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that the reasonable choice if it doesn't get you to your destination? I too did a lot of AI coding but when I saw the spaghetti it made, I went back to regular coding, with ask mode not agent mode as a search engine.

Because of compound efficiency and technological enablement. Or, risking to beat the metaphor to death, because over a span of time I'll cross many more deserts than I would have on a camel, and because I'll cross deserts that I wouldn't even try crossing on a camel.

Why does it matter how many deserts you cross if you never get to where you want to go? I similarly can take 10 flights across oceans but never end up in the city I'm trying to visit. Sounds like in your metaphor the person is just crossing desserts because they want to with no goal or destination in mind.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#279

Post by Cthulhu_ »

abhgh wrote: post #174
gyomu wrote: post #32

This March 2025 post from Aral Balkan stuck with me: https://mastodon.ar.al/@aral/114160190826192080 "Coding is like taking a lump of clay and slowly working it into the thing you want it to become. It is this process, and your intimacy with the medium and the materials you’re shaping, that teaches you about what you’re making – its qualities, tolerances, and limits – even as you make it. You know the least about wha…

This is an amazing quote - thank you. This is also my argument for why I can't use LLMs for writing (proofreading is OK) - what I write is not produced as a side-effect of thinking through a problem, writing is how I think through a problem.

Counterpoint (more devil's advocate), I'd argue it's better than an LLM writes something (e.g. the solution or thinking through of a problem) than nothing at all.

Counterpoint to my own counterpoint, will anyone actually (want to) read it?

counterpoint to the third degree, to loop it back around, an LLM might and I'd even argue an LLM is better at reading and ingesting long text (I'm thinking architectural documentation etc) than humans are. Speaking for myself, I struggle to read attentively through e.g. a document, I quickly lose interest and scan read or just focus on what I need instead.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#280

Post by cladopa »

I believe the article is wrong in so many ways.

If you think too much you get into dead ends and you start having circular thoughts, like when you are lost in the desert and you realise you are in the same place again after two hours as you have made a great circle(because one of your legs is dominant over the other).

The thinker needs feedback on the real world. It needs constant testing of hypothesis on reality or else you are dealing with ideology, not critical thinking. It needs other people and confrontation of ideas so the ideas stay fresh and strong and do not stagnate in isolation and personal biases.

That was the most frustrating thing before AI, a thinker could think very fast, but was limited in testing by the ability to build. Usually she had to delegate it to people that were better builders, or else she had to be builder herself, doing what she hates all the time.

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