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East Germany balloon escape

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Re: East Germany balloon escape

#271

Post by nunobrito »

mothballed wrote: post #36
thenaturalist wrote: post #15

> East Germany immediately increased border security, closed all small airports close to the border, and ordered the planes kept farther inland.[6] Propane gas tanks became registered products, and large quantities of fabric suitable for balloon construction could no longer be purchased. Mail from East Germany to the two escaped families was prohibited.[12] > Erich Strelzyk learned of his brother's escape on the ZDF…

Depends on the form of authoritarian. The two of the richest countries on a GDP PPP basis are Lichtenstein and Singapore, also some of the most free economically, yet they could probably be described as benevolent authoritarian systems. Dubai further behind, although some similar points. It seems authoritarians that know how to use their authority to force the populace to accept (some forms of) freedom can perform be…

There was a democratic referendum in 2003 to essentially reduce the authority of the Liechenstein ruler, the population largely voted to grant absolute power to the ruling family: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Liechtenstein_constitutio...

Authoritarianism is the oldest form of effective government. Just as curious note, dictatorship was introduced during the Roman epoch and was used as temporary measure during war times. Look for example in Ukraine where the same ruler is avoiding elections since some time due to war, in the root sense of the government-style it is possible to describe it as a dictatorship today, if it hadn't been for the negative connotation of that term in the last 100 years.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#272

Post by fc417fc802 »

qcnguy wrote: post #234
fc417fc802 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile we put experts to work optimizing conversion and engagement metrics. A truly enlightened way of life we've built for ourselves.

Conversion metrics = people find what they want to buy quicker and more efficiently, allowing them to spend time on leisure that would otherwise have been spent on gathering needed goods. Engagement metrics = making entertainment that's popular rather than what's mandated by the state's culture committees. Optimizing them is a virtuous and noble profession.

Extensive effort to improve conversion metrics tends to result in dark patterns (and increased revenue).

Extensive effort to improve engagement metrics tends to result in negative emotional states (and increased revenue).

When it comes to entertainment, optimizing return on investment often means maximizing the size of the potential audience. The end result of that process is usually slop.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#273

Post by qcnguy »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #272
qcnguy wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conversion metrics = people find what they want to buy quicker and more efficiently, allowing them to spend time on leisure that would otherwise have been spent on gathering needed goods. Engagement metrics = making entertainment that's popular rather than what's mandated by the state's culture committees. Optimizing them is a virtuous and noble profession.

Extensive effort to improve conversion metrics tends to result in dark patterns (and increased revenue). Extensive effort to improve engagement metrics tends to result in negative emotional states (and increased revenue). When it comes to entertainment, optimizing return on investment often means maximizing the size of the potential audience. The end result of that process is usually slop.

Dark patterns and slop aren't well defined terms. Engagement resulting in negative emotional states is not obviously a problem. Social studies academics pretend it is, but have no trouble with people consuming state TV news even if it shows them a constant stream of bad news stories.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#274

Post by Terr_ »

qcnguy wrote: post #249
Terr_ wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "immigrants" is the wrong statistic here, since it includes workers with no path to citizenship. (In some cases, they can't leave because their employer stole their passport.) It confuses "this is a good place to resettle" with "here I can arbitrage higher wages in order to send money back home."

You're still an immigrant even if you can't become a citizen.

> > it includes workers with no path to citizenship

> You're still an immigrant even if you can't become a citizen.

Yes, like I said. My point is that these two scenarios are very different:

1. "I am +1 to the immigrant count because this is a great place for me and my family to live and I wish for us to move here permanently."

2. "I am +1 to the immigrant count temporarily because the wages here are so much more than I could earn at home, and I'm remitting that money back to my family who live somewhere else. As much as this is an opportunity for me, we could never move here because same wages would have my family homeless and starving, making this a terrible place to move permanently."

Both people are happily adding to the "immigrants inside" count, but they are very different judgements about the country.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#275

Post by qcnguy »

immibis wrote: post #259
qcnguy wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Left wing thought doesn't contain any philosophy of limitations on state power, so under a left wing regime there is no limit to what it might do. No matter how terrible something is, if it can be imagined they will consider implementing it. To avoid that outcome there has to be an understanding of the flawed nature of government, and from that an ideological commitment to a state limited in power and role.

[flagged]

We're talking about North Korea executing children because their family members escaped. Doesn't get more left wing than North Korea. Not a good look to deploy a stock reply without thinking.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#276

Post by qcnguy »

olelele wrote: post #254
qcnguy wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Left wing thought doesn't contain any philosophy of limitations on state power, so under a left wing regime there is no limit to what it might do. No matter how terrible something is, if it can be imagined they will consider implementing it. To avoid that outcome there has to be an understanding of the flawed nature of government, and from that an ideological commitment to a state limited in power and role.

So everyone not a libertarian is dangerous?

Only if they get into power? I mean what's your reading of the last few centuries of history?

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#277

Post by lostlogin »

tim333 wrote: post #196
lostlogin wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you have banned protest, how would you know if they were forced or not? EVERYONE IS HAPPY.

Sounds like you haven't been to Singapore.

Not sure why you’d say that. Did you see protests or Something?

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#278

Post by elbci »

honzabe wrote: post #247
elbci wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those 50-60-70+% of people in former communist states don't "romanticize", they just remember being better. Utopia - no, but better than capitalism. Without an example of a communist state shielded from constant attacks, sabotage and sanctions from the dominant capitalist we will never know how good it could get. We just know the imperfect as it was, it was still better.

> Those 50-60-70+% of people in former communist states don't "romanticize", they just remember being better. Where did you get those numbers? I remember reading about one survey where the number of people with previous regime ‘nostalgia’ was around 50%. That survey had flawed methodology, and the results were probably mostly about nostalgia related to the times when we were young, and our backs did not hurt (obvious…

there's a wikipedia link above (showing indeed Czechia amongst the least "nostalgic" - only 25% in 2021). As for elections results, how many ppl don't bother to vote (31% absenteeism vs 36% best electoral score, ANO)? how many tv stations do communists have, how many lavishly funded NGOs? how many instances proving the "communist" party to be no more that a pale imitation if not straight up controlled opposition...

As for the "flawed methodology": 66.2% of Romanians regret Nicolae Ceausescu in a study..."commissioned by the Institute for the Investigation of Communist Crimes and the Memory of the Romanian Exile" - I'd say if the "institute" of bad-mouthing communism had to admit that number... well it seems the russian bots are extremely efficient, maybe we should listen to them instead of useless Ursula bots ;)

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#279

Post by honzabe »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #270
honzabe wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I understood well. In my country, there is a barrage of Russian propaganda trying to relativize our shitty experience with the communist regime. They keep flooding the zone with claims about democracy being flawed, weak, bureaucratic, meaningless, and decadent. And it is working. People appreciate democracy a lot less than ten or twenty years ago. Sure, there is a time for the self-criticism of the flaws of the W…

> Which is why it bugs me so much when people talk about the flaws of both in one breath as if they were even remotely comparable. I agree. But it was not my intent to portray them as even remotely similar, hence the misunderstanding. Reading about things like the balloon escape and what surrounded it gives a very real sense of just how bad things were. So when you see just how much better we have it, the sheer amoun…

There is no doubt in my mind that your intent was good.

> A rough analogy might be, we figure out advanced bioengineering and then the next thing you know we as a society have collectively gone to great lengths to apply it to create the Torment Nexus

What connection between bioengineering and Torment Nexus do you have in mind? The advances of bioengineering that pop up in my mind are mRNA vaccines and new cancer treatments, which I consider awesome and not at all Torment Nexus-y. When you say Torment Nexus, that makes me think of Thiel’s Palantir, but this is not something we do collectively as a society - is it? To me, that is exactly the anti-democratic stuff pushed by a few specific people that we as a society need to rein in.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#280

Post by honzabe »

stackghost wrote: post #13

>The family members included: > Peter Strelzyk, aged 37 > Doris Strelzyk > Frank Strelzyk, aged 15 > Andreas Strelzyk, aged 11 > Günter Wetzel, aged 24 > Petra Wetzel > Peter Wetzel, aged 5 > Andreas Wetzel, aged 2 Was/is it common practice to omit the ages of adult women in Germany?

> Was/is it common practice to omit the ages of adult women in Germany?

A gentleman does not ask a lady's age.

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