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‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

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Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#271

Post by idle_zealot »

stuffn wrote: post #242
idle_zealot wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) You don't deport them, you don't ignore them, you document them. Then you let them live their lives. They're people, not a mold outgrowth that needs culling. 2) Check those stats a bit more closely. The vast majority of "deportations" were people turned away at the border.

Cute. 1. Entering a country without proper documentation is a crime. Therefore all "undocumented immigration" is by definition criminal. 2. Removing criminals is paramount to a safe society and a justice system that is respected. 3. "Documenting them and letting them live" undermines legal immigrants who likely worked very hard to integrate culturally, establish themselves, and do the proper LEGAL paperwork. These le…

> "Documenting them and letting them live" undermines legal immigrants who likely worked very hard to integrate culturally, establish themselves, and do the proper LEGAL paperwork.

It's a shame those people had to work so hard to be treated like their neighbors. That's not a reason to deny others that treatment though.

> I have yet to meet a legal immigrant that isn't okay with booting anyone that isn't legal out.

Yeah they tend to skew pretty reactionary. That tends to sort itself out after a generation or two.

> A country without border control is NOT a country.

I didn't say we shouldn't have border security. In what universe is a goon squad going door to door checking for undesirables "border control"?

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#272

Post by hairofadog »

cheese4242 wrote: post #98
castis wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I for one would find it far more acceptable if the people carrying out the deportations would be a little less "shoot U.S. civilians in the face for not listening" about it.

The person you are referring to rammed an ICE agent with their vehicle and the agent suffered internal bleeding as a result. Sorry but there is no scenario where you can strike law enforcement with your car after being repeatedly ordered to exit your vehicle where their wouldn't be a justifiable use of lethal force. Trying to frame it as "shoot U.S. civilians in the face for not listening" is extremely disingenuous.

The "interal bleeding" thing is so unbelievably ludicrous. He got a bruise because he was lurching for the car while juggling his phone in one hand and a gun in the other. She was clearly neither trying to, nor succeeding in "ramming" him.

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#273

Post by dragonwriter »

periodjet wrote: post #134

Why have we all lost the ability to think in a nuanced way? It’s very disturbing to witness, particularly on a forum like HN, ostensibly populated by smart people. It’s possible to simultaneously believe that ICE has a clear and ethical mandate while also believing that they are going about fulfilling that mandate via bad methods that need to change. It’s possible to simultaneously believe that people shouldn’t be ma…

> It’s possible to simultaneously believe that ICE has a clear and ethical mandate while also believing that they are going about fulfilling that mandate via bad methods that need to change.

Yes, that it is a set of things that it is possible one could believe.

That is not an argument for it being a set of things that one ought to believe, as opposed to that ICE has a legal mandate that it isn't actually pursuing, and the mandate which it is pursuing is both intentionally murky, unethical to the extent that evidence suggests what it is, and also pursued by methods that are illegal and inhumane even irrespective of the bad ends that they are directed at.

> It’s possible to simultaneously believe that people shouldn’t be marked as intrinsically “illegal” while also believing that an immigration queue should exist and skipping it is immoral and should be illegal.

Again, that it is certainly a set of things it is possible to believe, but it seems pretty silly to believe. A queue is at best an undesirable consequences of particular choices about how to manage concerns about quantitative levels of immigration and particular impacts those levels might have, not an ideal to be pursued.

> Nuance is possible.

“X is possible” is not an argument is that X is, factually or morally as appropriate to the shape of the proposition at issue, justified. And an extended argument that sets of beliefs are possible is something people only engage in when they recognize that they are unable to make the case that they are justified, but nevertheless want to suggest that people are bad for failing to adopt them.

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#274

Post by nozzlegear »

cheese4242 wrote: post #198
kevinsundar wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the “ICE agent” presented identification to her showing he was law enforcement? Nope. Oh so he got out of a vehicle marked as ICE? Nope. Do you want to live in a country where an unidentified masked individual with a gun can say “im a fed”, stop a car and force someone out without proper ID? That’s what you’re in support of. I’d say one would have a right to self defense. Also internal bleeding was literally just…

This is such a bizarre argument because the entire reason the two women were there in the first place is because they thought they were following ICE agents. Both women were part of "ICE Watch", an anti-ICE activist group. They had been following the agents around throughout the day, attempting to disrupt them, which is why the car was parked perpendicular in the street (to block the ICE vehicles) prior to the incide…

> Both women were part of "ICE Watch", an anti-ICE activist group

Based.

> which is why the car was parked perpendicular in the street (to block the ICE vehicles) prior to the incident.

That giant ass street that could fit three of her car across its entire width? The one where she was signaling them to go around her? It doesn't sound like she was very effective at disrupting ICE.

But even if she was the most effective giant-road-blocking ICE inconveniencer Minneapolis has ever seen, she still should not have been murdered by ICE. It's morally indefensible, there's no world wherein she deserved to be shot unless she had a gun and was shooting first.

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#275

Post by idle_zealot »

palmotea wrote: post #251
idle_zealot wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because open-borders is how you get more MAGA. Pretending that immigrants are the underlying cause of every societal failure is how you get MAGA. Enabling that big lie bolsters it. And I don't think I can enumerate the ways in which an occupied house are different from a country and unsuitable for the metaphor you're trying.

> Pretending that immigrants are the underlying cause of every societal failure is how you get MAGA. Enabling that big lie bolsters it. What are you going to do, win elections by lecturing everyone about how they're wrong and they need to think just like you? People thought the Biden administration's immigration policy was too lax, and that was a major contributing cause to the second Trump term. Deporting people who…

> What are you going to do, win elections by lecturing everyone about how they're wrong and they need to think just like you?

I'm partial to the strategy of selling voters on a set of policies that will improve their lives and address their problems. Unfortunately neither party in my country is keen on that idea.

> People thought the Biden administration's immigration policy was too lax, and that was a major contributing cause to the second Trump term.

People thought that once they were told to think that. It's an easy sell to blame everything wrong on the scary dirty foreigners. When people are dissatisfied populism wins, regardless of whether the talking points are rooted in reality. The responsible thing to do is try to get people on board with populist ideas that help rather than hurt.

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#276

Post by wombatpm »

tokioyoyo wrote: post #230
thatguy0900 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean you can say stuff like that but the reality is they purposefully named themselves after a super villains magical spy apparatus so I'm not inclined to take his word about them being ethically neutral. Like I'm not really sure what they could name themselves after that would be more ominous

Even if they’re the most evil corpo ever, the buyer is still the government. If a democratically elected government buys this products, I would assume, in large scale of things, the general population wants the most evil corpo.

It’s not like they are overthrowing South American countries for favorable terms in pineapple and banana trade *cough*Dole*cough*Chiquita*cough*

Yet.

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#277

Post by NemoNobody »

periodjet wrote: post #157
R_D_Olivaw wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes yes, shoot mothers in the face in her car. Grab human beings from their homes and detain them thousands of miles away with no due process. Send human beings to detention camps in another country NOT the one they are from Please, people, have some decency and maintain the nuance. We're not barbarians here! Sheesh.

[flagged]

It's a slippery slope.

ICE at one time was legitimate - their previous purpose had legitimacy... past tense.

ICE will not exist at some point in the hopefully sooner future than later.

No amount of nuance will change fundamental failure to success.

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#278

Post by wombatpm »

pixelready wrote: post #66
dpoloncsak wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its kind of a conspiracy/"Open Secret" that Palantir was funded by the government to side skirt any "Government cannot...." rules. It's not the government breaking privacy regulations, its a private company doing it....just under contract of the government. Thats the rhetoric on good ole r/WallSteetBets, atleast. Theil and Karp definitely play into this angle as well, but that doesn't really prove anything ot…

Yeah, I don’t have any evidence for this but it certainly would make sense. It seems likely that the US government was catching wise to the data brokering loophole around the same time as the PayPal mafia was cashing out and Thiel would have been in the right circles to run into any well-connected gov’t types sniffing around for the most morally flexible big names in the valley. But it seems equally likely that Thiel…

At least the underwater city would be useful.

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#279

Post by NemoNobody »

bri3d wrote: post #20
pixelready wrote: post #12

I’ve never worked at Palantir, but once you get past the noisy leadership’s villain virtue signaling, every report I’ve read about the platform itself gives me strong “typical enterprise vendor” vibes. A lackluster software offering that is overhyped to institutional purchasers, then shoved down frontline employees’ throats because the vendor is good at navigating the sales and compliance labyrinth to secure deals. T…

This is my understanding of Palantir too: it's a consultancy with a map, a graph database, and some "AI" nonsense. They sell expensive "forward deployed engineers" (aka, consultants) to customize this map and graph database to specific use cases. I'm not trying to argue Palantir is an ethical company; my views on "company ethics" are nuanced but I wouldn't put them anywhere near my "places I want to work" bucket. But…

I think Palintr ought to be nationalized and placed under the jurisdiction of several competing watchdog agencies - it can generate automatically our annual, quarterly and etc datasets for specific, selected things.

Anyone in disagreement needs to read about Palintr and what has intentionally been said about it

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#280

Post by anon291 »

hairofadog wrote: post #225
anon291 wrote: post #135

[flagged]

That's not what's happening. There wouldn't be the backlash if they were primarily deporting "the worst of the worst", as they promised, using due process. Instead they're targeting everyone, including people here legally and in many cases U.S. citizens, without due process, in the cruelest and most over-the-top way possible.

Ignore the worst of the worst framing. Even a person who is unobjectionable but who is in the country without legal authorization is fine to be deported. I'm not going to pearl clutch over it. Estimates say that up 3-5% of the entire american population has no legal right to be in this country. I'm not a perfectionist. A few 100,000 would be totally reasonable to say 'good enough' at. But multiple millions? Not really sure where this line of argumentation goes really. The US government has made it very clear for a year now that people without authorization to be here should leave. They've even offered monetary incentives to go. At this point, people flaunting the law are doing so openly. Most of these people are not even refugees from war-torn regions. They're from our neighboring country of Mexico which has no war going on.
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