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Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

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Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#271

Post by _whiteCaps_ »

jahsome wrote: post #222
alexjplant wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A pickup truck should just be max utility, especially if you're a manufacturer making your first one The modern US pickup truck isn't built for utility. It's a $60,000 four-door lifted luxobarge with leather interior and a short bed. It signals (perceived) wealth while preserving working-class alignment. It can also be justified by way of having to pick up used furniture for TikTok refinish and flip projects or bim…

As someone who's just been trying to buy a crappy used truck to haul some crap to the dump a couple times a year, you're absolutely spot on. I even live in the southwest US where trucks make up a considerable portion of vehicles on the road. Crappy used trucks simply aren't up for sale. And even the rare listing I do come across, the asking price is ridiculously inflated.

Consider a Honda Acty - they even have models with a dumping bed.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#272

Post by recursive »

jandrese wrote: post #63
loeg wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The depreciation of electric vehicles has made me appreciate those circumstances more and more. The depreciation for most EVs isn't all that different from that of new ICE vehicles. For a while, MSRPs were artificially inflated by the EV tax credit, which could give artificially worse depreciation appearance .

So now that the tax credits are gone we should expect to see the sticker prices on new EVs to drop right? Right? Any day now?

This happened a few years ago, at least accounting for the dealer markups.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#273

Post by pixl97 »

zaphoyd wrote: post #247
pixl97 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and renting a chainsaw or other appropriate tool when necessary, I don't think most people realize how expensive and time consuming tool rental is. This is where things also get kind of messy in the US. In manicured suburbs you probably don't need a chainsaw. But in older growth and places with larger lots you really do need one. If you wait till you need one after a big storm, you may travel 100 miles out of the s…

We recently moved to a more rural location that has needed more tools. It is shocking just how expensive and inconvenient it is to rent tools (and even vehicles to some extent) and just how much worse it is being even just a little bit rural. The big box store in our town doesn't rent tools or vehicles. You have to drive 45-60 minutes to get to a store that does. This means the 4 hour rental prices (which for somethi…

>A full day tool rental is often 1/3 to 1/2 of the price of a new mass market version of the tool

For sure. I had to dig some post holes in limestone that was very hard. Rental was going to be $200 for a tool that would do it in a day.

Instead I went to harbor freight and bought a tool closer to $100 even though it took me a bit longer, and I get to keep the tool which is still working to this day.

Heh, and labor costs in the Austin area are off the hook. I did a project for around $5000 that a neighbor had a similar but smaller in scope project quoted for $21,000.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#274

Post by philistine »

bluGill wrote: post #230
Spooky23 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother has one, it is an amazing vehicle with better range performance than Tesla. It's dramatically better in the snow. Towing of large loads is a valid downside, but reality is that most people don't tow, and people who do are probably fine with 80% of the use cases (construction trailers, lawn trailers, etc). The business problem Tesla solved at Ford cannot is the dealer network. He pre-ordered his, and the de…

Electric cars still need maintenance. They don't get regular oil changes, but they wear out tires sooner. They have more recalls in general than ICE (this will likely change, but manufactures are still learning how to make EVs reliable). The parts of a car that are not common with EVs don't break for the first 100k miles, and almost nobody is using the dealer for cars that old. There is plenty of other work that is c…

Your argument hinges on any level of maintenance being enough to maintain our current level of investment. The truth is always more complicated.

Take for example DVD rental. The market completely evaporated, while there is still a small lingering community that could be serviced by rentals. My local library is proof that there is a market. But there are, bar some weird exceptions, no remaining DVD rental stores.

If an EV needs 50% of the maintenance, then it stands to reason that you need 50% of the staff. That's the easy part. But what about all the other staff? Can you afford as many staff in front of house when your main profit centre shrank massively? Can you keep the same amount of cars in the lot if you don't have the cash to pay the manufacturer fees?

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#275

Post by apercu »

nospice wrote: post #261
drewda wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a different aspect of utility: The F150 Lightning includes 120V and optionally 240V outlets, so it replaces the need to carry a separate gas-powered generator. That's probably more relevant to fleet vehicles for construction and maintenance firms than to individuals towing boats. But just to offer an example of how the F150 Lightning is a great fit for certain uses.

> Here's a different aspect of utility: The F150 Lightning includes 120V and optionally 240V outlets, so it replaces the need to carry a separate gas-powered generator. A small generator costs few hundred bucks and fits comfortably in any truck actually used for work. It's a small perk that some pro users would probably pay for, but it's not a selling point for a radically different car design.

Easily stolen.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#276

Post by _whiteCaps_ »

matthewfcarlson wrote: post #267

I do not understand why we haven’t seen someone take a cybertruck and drop a new body on top. I see “put a model 3 into x” on YouTube all the time. I would love to buy a cybertruck chassis with a VW bus or minivan on top (current political issues of Tesla aside).

The Cybertruck is a unibody, not body on frame, so it would be a lot of work.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#277

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

nospice wrote: post #261
drewda wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a different aspect of utility: The F150 Lightning includes 120V and optionally 240V outlets, so it replaces the need to carry a separate gas-powered generator. That's probably more relevant to fleet vehicles for construction and maintenance firms than to individuals towing boats. But just to offer an example of how the F150 Lightning is a great fit for certain uses.

> Here's a different aspect of utility: The F150 Lightning includes 120V and optionally 240V outlets, so it replaces the need to carry a separate gas-powered generator. A small generator costs few hundred bucks and fits comfortably in any truck actually used for work. It's a small perk that some pro users would probably pay for, but it's not a selling point for a radically different car design.

it's a few hundred bucks, an extra thing to remember, takes up bed space, requires bringing gas, and is loud and annoying to use. It's not the biggest thing, but it's a pretty nice value add.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#278

Post by bluGill »

plorkyeran wrote: post #192
mdavid626 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s exactly the problem. I’d be happy to use an EV daily, as I drive short distances. But when I drive longer, then I don’t want to waste hours on charging. The other day I drove 700km in just about 5.5 hours (German Autobahn). Few stops to pee. With EV that would be few hours more (!). If this doesn’t bother you, then it’s fine. It matters to me though. Sometimes I also drive early in the morning 600km, and in th…

As long as there's a fast charging station somewhere along the route you'd need more like 30 minutes to charge midway through, not multiple hours. You also surely recognize that your driving patterns are very atypical and a car not working for them says very little about how suitable the car is for the market as a whole.

A fast charging station that is working, that has the correct connector for your car (including adapters you carry), that your car will work with (Tesla hasn't opened their superchargers to call cars with the NACS connector), that you have an account with... There are too many things that just are not there.

One top of that you need to find a charger. They are all over, but many of them are slow speed chargers. There are also a lot of gaps, if you pass a charger with 50% battery remaining you can't be sure you will make the next one. (most cars can pass several gas station with 5% gas in the tank and still make it to one). You need to ensure you will get back to your car when it is charged so they don't charge extra (this is a problem if you are at a concert or something and are trying to charge while doing something else that can't be interupted)

Someday all the above will be fixed. Everyone agrees NACS is the future connector, but it isn't rolled out. Someday every "gas station" will have a charger with the gas pumps (or perhaps something else?) - at least along routes where people often make long trips. Someday you won't need a phone/account, just swipe a card - or so I hope. But someday isn't today.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#279

Post by Kirby64 »

mdavid626 wrote: post #166
Workaccount2 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 600 mile trip can (theoretically) be done with 1 charge, because you leave home with full range, and arrive with 0 charge (and fill up overnight). That one charge is done while eating dinner, or spaced out in increments over the course of the trip , stops which you would take anyway. I know few people who want to bang out 10 hours without stopping for at least 1-2 hours over the course of the trip. And those who do…

Which EV can go 600 miles with one charge, or with so little charging? How much does that car cost? Are you assuming, that every charger on the way is 200kW?

Lucid Grand Touring can do it in one charge (that lasts ~45 minutes). Expensive, but it could do it.

I did Shreveport, LA to Pesos, TX as an example.

If you're OK with 2 charging stops, an Ioniq 6 or a Tesla Model 3 will work just fine.

Also, charging speed is irrelevant to how many stops you need. Most chargers are >150kW these days, though.

If you truly want to minimize charging stops, you'd be better served charging 3+ times for shorter periods of time, though.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#280

Post by [deleted] »

nikcub wrote: post #61
mdavid626 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that EV-s are held back by misconceptions. More their price and range.

Resale value is starting to ward some people off. You can buy 1-2 year old used Teslas and BYD's in Australia for ~30% below retail. Meanwhile Toyota hybrids not just retain their value but there have been moments where used RAV4's are listed above retail because the waitlist for new was so long.

[deleted]
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