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Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

sciencedaily.com

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Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#271

Post by darrenf »

bmicraft wrote: post #196
darrenf wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this to be true, and that it perfectly dovetailed with TFA. When I was at my absolute depth (so far…) back in 2013, I would see my counsellor at 1130 on a Saturday. I’d be able to recount the darkness of the previous 7 days in stark vivid detail, yet cheerfully and not feeling at all depressed in the moment. The counsellor asked what I did on Saturday morning except the session and my answer was, well I do Pa…

This reads like an ad. Why would you capitalize it like a product name and then even link to the website? I still have no idea what it really is. From the name I'd think you're going for a run at a local park. The website calls it a "5k and 2k community event", what that's supposed to mean I have no clue. It insists you either "join" or "volunteer", all while being as non-specific as possible why I should even care 2…

I’m advocating not advertising.

I capitalise it out of muscle memory. That’s all. FWIW Wikipedia capitalises it as well.

I called it out with a link because I expect many folk to be unfamiliar with it, but the nature of parkrun itself — rather than simply going for a 5k[m] run — is intrinsic to the point I was trying to make.

5k is perfectly well understood to be a distance, especially in context, in British English and I’m a Brit. My bad I guess for not adding “m” for (some of) the HN readership. [EDIT: actually, I said 5km! Not my fault if parkrun says 5k, but they are a British organisation)

Regardless of that, you were correct that parkrun is indeed a run around a park. I won’t explain any further nor link anywhere lest it be misconstrued as advertising (something that’s proudly free, mind you). Besides which I need to get to and get my running kit on.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#272

Post by fatata123 »

smeej wrote: post #87
yomismoaqui wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Motivation is fleeting but routine persists. When there is something that you want to do regularly (exercise, doing the final boring part of some sideproject, cleaning the house...) you remove willpower from the equation and set a day and a time. For example, everyday from 18 to 19 I work on my sideprojects, or saturdays from 16 to 18 is house cleaning time. There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that…

> There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that time and I have to do it, period. Gosh it must be nice to have at least an ordinary amount of executive function skills. Is it really this easy for neurotypical people to build routines? That's really all it takes? I don't see how this removes willpower at all. It just determines what time you have to use it.

[dead]

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#273

Post by tsoukase »

Physical exercise, like diet, and mood are complicated bio-psycho-social functions that are depended on dozens of overlapping factors in each person. Most meta-analyses and their underlying studies ignore most of these dimensions and come to a binary yes-no conclusion based on a mere p-value. Huge confounding effects persist that the studies should heavily take into account. At least examining such popular functions provide large samples cheaply.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#274

Post by safety1st »

smeej wrote: post #87
yomismoaqui wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Motivation is fleeting but routine persists. When there is something that you want to do regularly (exercise, doing the final boring part of some sideproject, cleaning the house...) you remove willpower from the equation and set a day and a time. For example, everyday from 18 to 19 I work on my sideprojects, or saturdays from 16 to 18 is house cleaning time. There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that…

> There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that time and I have to do it, period. Gosh it must be nice to have at least an ordinary amount of executive function skills. Is it really this easy for neurotypical people to build routines? That's really all it takes? I don't see how this removes willpower at all. It just determines what time you have to use it.

The parent comment's point is that you can reduce the amount of executive function required to do the correct thing. Doing something at the same time every day will indeed make it more automatic, requiring less willpower to do it again tomorrow. This effect applies whether you're neurotypical or not and is grounded in behavioral research.

There are better examples in my opinion than just doing something at 18:00 every day. There's a technique called habit stacking where you identify all the habits you already have at a given time (like when you first wake up), and then you add one more at the end. It's easier to introduce a new habit this way, and it becomes ingrained more quickly, resulting in less need to use executive function.

There are still more techniques. An example from my personal life: in my whole adult life, I've never gone to the gym... unless I sign up for a gym that's right across the street from my workplace. Then it happens like clockwork. If all I need to do is walk across the street, I end up in the gym, and inevitably, I work out. If I need to drive 20 minutes though, well my willpower just ain't that great, so it basically never happens.

The best book I've read on this topic is Atomic Habits by James Clear. He goes deep down the rabbit hole of these techniques you can employ and touches on the research it's all based on. The brain's not a computer so I mean it's not all just going to come together automatically, but in my experience this stuff does work.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#275

Post by resumenext »

javanissen wrote: post #123
resumenext wrote: post #113

Therapy carries a huge risk, so maybe if you compare average outcomes exercise is only nearly as effective, but if you consider the 2 overall exercise comes out way, way ahead imho.

Is the huge risk being involuntarily committed? If so, that is a risk that is very dependent on local laws. I would be much more cautious about seeking mental health care in Florida, where the Baker Act makes it very easy, than in Connecticut [0]. The risk of being involuntarily committed also, of course, has to be balanced against the risk of forgoing mental health care when you need it and then injuring or killing…

That seems like a minor concern. Therapeutic malpractice is a thing, misdiagnosis, iatrogenic treatments and so forth; not uncommon. Was a time when gay was in the dsm, the pendulum has swung back and forth on transgender children.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#276

Post by resumenext »

HauntingPin wrote: post #135
resumenext wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hesitate to ask but what is your gender? I think there may be very gender specific effects in this comparison. I would also be very curious the type and intensity of exercise and whether you had comorbidities that impact ability to train (obesity, low testosterone, etc).

I'm male. I've done everything from cycling to 5-10k running to heavy weightlifting. The only other thing I have is ADHD, no other comorbidities.

Thanks for the response and the useful (to me at least) data point. Glad the AD helped and sorry to hear you didn’t find all that exertion useful. Goes to show how individual we all are in terms of mental health.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#277

Post by synecdoche »

Jtsummers wrote: post #238
bmicraft wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5k is not a distance. 5km, 5 thousand feet or yards are. I've never heard of this weird and unnecessary "abbreviation"

> 5k is not a distance. 5km, 5 thousand feet or yards are. I answered that question already, try reading my earlier comment. And if you think it's weird, take it up with people from last century when they started using that abbreviation.

For an international audience it's ambiguous. 5 k of what could one reasonably wonder.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#278

Post by synecdoche »

hn_acc1 wrote: post #241
taeric wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone that is unable to keep any sort of routine, I have objections here. :D Without some sort of obligating circumstance, it is incredibly easy to forego what would have otherwise been today's routine.

This 100x. I go to work because I don't want to have a long uncomfortable conversation with my boss, and because I hate interviewing, and not having income is even worse. Even at work, I often find reasons (like HN) to do actually DO work. I've had routines at times in my life for months. And they disappear in a matter of days when I get stressed or my schedule changes or whatever.

If you don't run your life others will do it for you.

Nothing in this life is a must.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#279

Post by tsoukase »

gehsty wrote: post #19

If it helps anyone I take antidepressants and have had a positive experience with them. Depression can be caused by a chemical imbalance and no amount of exercise or talking about it will fix it. One of the most frustrating things when your really low is people giving advice like do exercise to feel better - please don’t do this.

Usual antidepressants (reuptake inhibitors) have specific chemical and clinical effects. Some forms of depression, mostly with stress, respond heavily, others, like refractory and bipolar, show no effect. It's like saying a knife cannot cut an arbitrary material. It depends. Studies of ADs must start to differentiate at least a few subtypes of depression.

Re: Exercise can be nearly as effective as therapy for depression

#280

Post by benji8000 »

femto wrote: post #225
yomismoaqui wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Motivation is fleeting but routine persists. When there is something that you want to do regularly (exercise, doing the final boring part of some sideproject, cleaning the house...) you remove willpower from the equation and set a day and a time. For example, everyday from 18 to 19 I work on my sideprojects, or saturdays from 16 to 18 is house cleaning time. There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that…

The key I found was to avoid self flagellation. Try your hardest to do each session, but if you miss a session don't try to make it up. Just get on and do a normal session the next time it falls due. You're in it for the long term, so long term it doesn't matter if you were intermittent when building the habit, or the occasional session gets missed for a reason.

This, plus start small. Just do those 5 or 10 minutes of karate exercises per day, at a fixed time, or 5 new flashcards per day.
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