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Some people can't see mental images

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Re: Some people can't see mental images

#271

Post by [deleted] »

comprev wrote: post #215
tbabb wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is some context: Early in the aphantasia discourse, someone asked a group I was in to do a mental exercise: Imagine an apple. Can you tell what color it is? What variety? Can you tell the lighting? Is it against a background? Does it have a texture? Imagine cutting into it. And so on. For me, not only was the color, variety, lighting, and texture crystal clear, but I noticed that when I mentally "cut into" the a…

I can _remember_ the properties of an apple - approximate size, weight (my hand does not instantly drop to the floor due to its weight), etc. I can't _imagine_ an apple in my hand if you defined the colour, size or weight (for example, purple, 50cm diameter and 100Kg). In my mind I am recalling a _memory_ of holding an apple in my hand - not imagining the one according to your specifications. One example I can give i…

[deleted]

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#272

Post by poly2it »

tekacs wrote: post #31

For those who find themselves wondering whether they 'have' aphantasia or not, I would really recommend looking at the aphantasia apples: https://lianamscott.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/f4c55-1_b... As in: if you look at this image, can you place yourself on a scale of 1 - 5 of as to the fidelity with which you can picture an apple if you try to imagine it? I'm a 5 for example, and in asking many people this quest…

From the comments here I'm almost getting the impression aphantasia is more common than not, which is wild to me. I'm quite sure I'd place myself on one. I can imagine an apple, and it will vividly appear. I can transform it, see reflections on it or imagine the feel and sound from slicing it. However, I do not experience the apple as part of an overlay, as some others have described it. Rather, it's as if I use a different set of eyes, ears or a another skin. The more vividly imagine the apple, the less aware I become of my actual senses. I can of course also imagine how the apple would interact with the environment around me, but the combined environment is still distinct from reality. I also have very precise memories of faces I've seen. I've always wondered if there's an inverted correlation with my number memory, which is much more diffuse.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#273

Post by vanadium1st »

Matterless wrote: post #266

I don't know why I'm surprised every time to see so many people astounded in the comments every time another of these articles come out. I guess I thought by now this phenomenon would be more common knowledge... I'm a non-seer and a non-self speaker. That is, I do not have any clear monologue whatsoever, nor can I visualize anything at all. However, I have a pretty great memory, just not for the experience of things,…

When you're standing in front of a mirror, can you ask yourself a question and then answer it without saying anything out loud?

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#274

Post by saltcured »

Matterless wrote: post #266

I don't know why I'm surprised every time to see so many people astounded in the comments every time another of these articles come out. I guess I thought by now this phenomenon would be more common knowledge... I'm a non-seer and a non-self speaker. That is, I do not have any clear monologue whatsoever, nor can I visualize anything at all. However, I have a pretty great memory, just not for the experience of things,…

I am also aphantasic and have no internal monologue. I never had them as far as I know. When I heard that kids could have "imaginary friends" I thought it sounded totally absurd. I equated it with my schizophrenic relative who hallucinates and suffers delusions.

Unlike you, I have a little bit of aural memory and recall. It is faint and abstract compared to real hearing, but not nearly as abstract as for imagery, which is basically not there except for some spatial or topological feeling.

I'm also pretty good at recognizing voices, faces, gaits, and such. I also often have a feeling best expressed as, "doesn't this person resemble that person except for X", like I can feel a subset of recognition features are present or there is something contradictory about it. I don't think recognition entails "envisioning and comparing". It is a much more direct triggering on the recognizable features.

I remember the horror I experienced as a little kid, when I mis-recognized my mom in a store. I was so small I was looking at legs and hands and the torso disappears up into perspective. I went right up to her and grabbed her and then looked up. The feeling of "knowing" my mom was there evaporating and being replaced with the understanding that I just grabbed a stranger was a very disturbing perspective shift.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#275

Post by lordnacho »

comprev wrote: post #215
tbabb wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is some context: Early in the aphantasia discourse, someone asked a group I was in to do a mental exercise: Imagine an apple. Can you tell what color it is? What variety? Can you tell the lighting? Is it against a background? Does it have a texture? Imagine cutting into it. And so on. For me, not only was the color, variety, lighting, and texture crystal clear, but I noticed that when I mentally "cut into" the a…

I can _remember_ the properties of an apple - approximate size, weight (my hand does not instantly drop to the floor due to its weight), etc. I can't _imagine_ an apple in my hand if you defined the colour, size or weight (for example, purple, 50cm diameter and 100Kg). In my mind I am recalling a _memory_ of holding an apple in my hand - not imagining the one according to your specifications. One example I can give i…

Can I ask you a personal question? How do you imagine sex? I thought that everyone kinda thought about themselves doing it with someone else, a bit like a porn movie that you make in your own mind.

I can't imagine it being at all interesting to just think about it the way you are talking about it, like it would just be a sort of description of what the other person looks like, without the multifaceted sensations. Touch, smell, visuals.

And if you can't imagine it, how do you go about ever doing anything about getting it? It's like saying you want a juicy burger without imagining yourself eating it. Like a paper description of an experience, rather than a simulation of it. It doesn't seem motivating enough that you'd bother washing yourself, getting nice clothes, and going to chat with women.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#276

Post by markhahn »

conradev wrote: post #144
nosianu wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it is like a different "space" for mental vs real images. It is not the same neurons, I would guess. The real images are (and feel) outside of myself (obviously, you may say). The mental image feels very close and kind of "inside my mental space", in a dark space. It is far from how I see with my eyes on all levels, very basic. It is more conceptual, that concept given some vague form, not "pixels" (not that t…

It's the same for me, in terms of it being dark and fuzzy unless concentrated on. but I really do notice this sort of ability when it comes to memory. When I am looking for something, I can often visualize a scene of where I saw it last. This is not always helpful for actually finding the object, but it can be! When trying to recall a meeting, I can recall materials I saw (bits of text on slides, images, etc). I'm fa…

I find it implausible that people really have extreme, detailed imagery. Not that they can't do it on demand, if desired. But if every time they imagined something, it instantly appeared with all possible detail - that's just tremendously inefficient.

I think of it as more like Level of Detail in a 3d visualization. So when you ask people how much detail they imagine, their response strategy might determine most of the variance. (Some think you mean "what is the ultimate limit of your viz", and others think you mean "what detail is in a no-purpose-given, speeded-response viz".

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#277

Post by lordnacho »

Matterless wrote: post #266

I don't know why I'm surprised every time to see so many people astounded in the comments every time another of these articles come out. I guess I thought by now this phenomenon would be more common knowledge... I'm a non-seer and a non-self speaker. That is, I do not have any clear monologue whatsoever, nor can I visualize anything at all. However, I have a pretty great memory, just not for the experience of things,…

Well, I have another question further down to another guy about how he imagines sex, I guess you can answer that as well.

But also, how do you solve math problems? Often the you need to draw a graph and look at some crossing points. For me, I can conjure up a video in my mind similar to 3B1B, and I use that to think about the problem. It can even get complicated enough that it would take me a while to draw on paper. How do you solve such problems?

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#278

Post by teamonkey »

the_af wrote: post #73
kbrkbr wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find it so surprising, because I can recollect sounds, voices, songs. The same thing, another sense. So it's probably like hearing "inner" sounds, just with motion pictures. I wonder if there are also sound aphantasts, but it's highly likely. Different to the case described at the beginning of the article I have lots of memories. But they are stories of what happened, not movies.

> I wonder if there are also sound aphantasts, but it's highly likely. My friend is one such person. He is amazed I can "hear" the opening soundtrack of Star Wars. I'm amazed there are people who cannot. It's probably a related phenomenon to visual aphantasia. My friend, poor thing, has it all.

It’s probably related but not directly connected. My mind’s eye is almost totally blind but I can have John Williams conducting a full orchestra in my head if I want.

(I can’t ‘hear’ lyrics though and have great difficulty remembering them)

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#279

Post by jason_pomerleau »

Matterless wrote: post #266

I don't know why I'm surprised every time to see so many people astounded in the comments every time another of these articles come out. I guess I thought by now this phenomenon would be more common knowledge... I'm a non-seer and a non-self speaker. That is, I do not have any clear monologue whatsoever, nor can I visualize anything at all. However, I have a pretty great memory, just not for the experience of things,…

What is it like to read fiction? Tolkien’s writing comes to mind as a good example: many passages of Lord of the Rings are detailed descriptions of the surrounding landscape. Are these types of works just not enjoyable?

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#280

Post by dekhn »

markhahn wrote: post #276
conradev wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same for me, in terms of it being dark and fuzzy unless concentrated on. but I really do notice this sort of ability when it comes to memory. When I am looking for something, I can often visualize a scene of where I saw it last. This is not always helpful for actually finding the object, but it can be! When trying to recall a meeting, I can recall materials I saw (bits of text on slides, images, etc). I'm fa…

I find it implausible that people really have extreme, detailed imagery. Not that they can't do it on demand, if desired. But if every time they imagined something, it instantly appeared with all possible detail - that's just tremendously inefficient. I think of it as more like Level of Detail in a 3d visualization. So when you ask people how much detail they imagine, their response strategy might determine most of t…

What about people who can look at something and then draw it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Wiltshire Do they have to recall specific areas, or do they perceive the entire thing as a fully instantiated mental image.
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