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California passes law to ban ultra-processed foods from school lunches

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Re: California passes law to ban ultra-processed foods from school lunches

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guacamole would count as Group 3 I believe. You use Group 1 and Group 2 ingredients to create it unless you're just grinding up avocados, in which case that's not a guacamole. If you really want to get interesting, you could even say homemade guacamole uses citric acid (from limes) to extend shelf life and enhance the flavor, which is on top of the sodium chloride (salt) that you use to do the same.

TIL the No True Scotsman fallacy can be used by guac snobs! :)

I mean... different dishes have different names. Mashed avocados would probably just be called mashed avocados. Guacamole has many many regional versions, but I do think salt would be considered an essential ingredient in most of them. Salt would be a Group 2 ingredient. Nova calls out adding salt or sugar to Group 1 makes it Group 3, and specifically calls out Group 1 does not contain added salt.

"Minimally processed foods, that together with unprocessed foods make up NOVA group 1, are unprocessed foods altered by industrial processes such as removal of inedible or unwanted parts, drying, crushing, grinding, fractioning, roasting, boiling, pasteurization, refrigeration, freezing, placing in containers, vacuum packaging or non-alcoholic fermentation. None of these processes add salt, sugar, oils or fats, or other food substances to the original food." https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10260459/

Re: California passes law to ban ultra-processed foods from school lunches

#272
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, you're missing a bunch of ingredients to actually make tasty cookies. Definitely need some salt. She's probably also using vanilla extract or purchased chocolate chips (or chunks) or cinnamon. Plus the leavening agent, so baking powder (or baking soda and another acid). That's all just for the basic cookies, there's so many options out there using stuff like malted chocolate powder, and that's ignoring making pa…

It was just an example of the kinds of ingredients, not a complete list. Granma is not going to add Potassium bromate, for example.

Yeah, but the point is adding salt raises the "Classification" to processed. Using store bought chocolate chips raises it to ultra processed because it contains ultra processed ingredients.

Re: California passes law to ban ultra-processed foods from school lunches

#273
post #154

I always thought it was a travesty that the "chefs" at my schools were just heating up junk food. It's the perfect place to achieve the economies of scale to produce whole-foods-based meals. But yet no 'real' food - dishes made from raw meat and raw vegetables that are processed in-house - was ever produced. I honestly don't think this will change in my lifetime. It's too much work and it feels like working hard, esp…

Instead of blaming the low nutritional value of school lunches on line workers being unwilling to "work hard" because of "modern culture," consider the possibility that they aren't the ones responsible for setting the menus or budgeting the ingredients. Your actual gripe is with local governments, the USDA and voters who consider funding any social program to be communism.

I think you are letting your biases influence your reading comprehension. I don't blame the line workers. It's not their fault. My gripe IS with the local government. Those are the the ones who have the responsibility to change the system and who seem happy to just buy Sysco. They are government workers too...

Re: California passes law to ban ultra-processed foods from school lunches

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What’s the evidence for this? Exactly what I paraphrased from the study - they chose three biomarkers that correlate with CVD - A increased 19%, B decreased 9%, C stayed the same. If they had chosen some other biomarker D instead of A, that increased say 5% or less, it would give an equally strong but opposite result as the result from the study. Meta analysis is only as strong as the studies it's based on. I looke…

You said: > if you'd picked a slightly different set of CVD-correlated biomarkers you would have got exactly the opposite result. So the evidence I’m looking for is empirics showing CVD correlated biomarkers that suggest a beneficial effect from consuming levels of sodium above recommended levels. Without that evidence then I don’t see why we should believe they would have got the opposite result if they picked other…

Regarding the reduction in mm Hg due to sodium - my argument is that the kind of impact on blood pressure can be qualitatively different.

In the same way that increased salt intake causes increased water retention, and thus increased weight, but this increased level of water weight goes away after a few days if you start consuming less salt, and there's no evidence of this causing long term harm.

I could see where if one already had severe CVD, maybe eating more salt could be the straw that breaks the camel's back, and thus until they heal the CVD it could be wise to limit salt. But this would be no indication that the salt is the cause of the CVD or causes any long term chronic problem. And it is the long term chronic CVD that is by far the most important to address IMHO. If salt is not causing that, this whole discussion is largely misdirected energy.

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> IMO Replacing butter with refined oils and whole grain flours/carbs - sure, solid move.

We disagree here but that's a separate issue from salt so I'll leave it. :)

> I’m very wary of trying to find “the culprit” for public health problems [etc]

I agree entirely with this. It's very complex, many factors, no single culprit or silver bullet, and that this is extremely important. It's all the things. So it's important to try to tease out which things are having which kind and degree of effect. And this is where I think salt has been scapegoated in a way that probably just distracts from the root problem as I describe above.

Re: California passes law to ban ultra-processed foods from school lunches

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you think the whole understanding of oxidative stress, antioxidants, etc is all crank panic vibes? I thought that that was pretty widely accepted. I realize that the idea that some oils oxidize easier than others and have less antioxidants and thus might cause more oxidative stress is often ignored or dismissed outright without being looked at. And, what is it then that makes potato chips junk food compared to…

I think the extrapolation to "canola oil is poison" is the crank bit.

Ok. I wouldn't necessarily call it poison, but would say it's qualitatively a new kind of food that was never eaten until the last ~150 years and is a likely contributor to chronic disease.

You called potato chips junk food but seem unwilling to say what about them makes them junk food, compared to, for example, a boiled potato.

I assume junk food means unhealthy and a likely contributor to chronic disease.

Re: California passes law to ban ultra-processed foods from school lunches

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What’s the evidence for this? Exactly what I paraphrased from the study - they chose three biomarkers that correlate with CVD - A increased 19%, B decreased 9%, C stayed the same. If they had chosen some other biomarker D instead of A, that increased say 5% or less, it would give an equally strong but opposite result as the result from the study. Meta analysis is only as strong as the studies it's based on. I looke…

You said: > if you'd picked a slightly different set of CVD-correlated biomarkers you would have got exactly the opposite result. So the evidence I’m looking for is empirics showing CVD correlated biomarkers that suggest a beneficial effect from consuming levels of sodium above recommended levels. Without that evidence then I don’t see why we should believe they would have got the opposite result if they picked other…

What's wrong with eggs btw?

The only thing I can easily find is that they have saturated fat - but it takes 4.5 eggs to have as much saturated fat as 1tbsp of butter.

Aside from 1 year of strict vegan diet, I've eaten an average of 4 eggs with 1tbsp butter mostly daily for my entire adult life (I'm 34), and also ate eggs regularly in childhood, and I seem to be in excellent health with no known issues. But I'm curious what I should be watching for.

Re: California passes law to ban ultra-processed foods from school lunches

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said: > if you'd picked a slightly different set of CVD-correlated biomarkers you would have got exactly the opposite result. So the evidence I’m looking for is empirics showing CVD correlated biomarkers that suggest a beneficial effect from consuming levels of sodium above recommended levels. Without that evidence then I don’t see why we should believe they would have got the opposite result if they picked other…

Regarding the reduction in mm Hg due to sodium - my argument is that the kind of impact on blood pressure can be qualitatively different. In the same way that increased salt intake causes increased water retention, and thus increased weight, but this increased level of water weight goes away after a few days if you start consuming less salt, and there's no evidence of this causing long term harm. I could see where if…

> In the same way that increased salt intake causes increased water retention, and thus increased weight, but this increased level of water weight goes away after a few days if you start consuming less salt, and there's no evidence of this causing long term harm.

We've already gone over data showing that when we summate data from RCTs and salt consumption we see reduced salt consumption leads to reduced cardiovascular disease events, so it's demonstrably not the case that there's no evidence of this causing long term harm.

Additionally we have strong evidence of a dose-response curve regarding blood pressure and atherosclerosis, so that additional 5mmHg is contributing to additional plaque burden. Even after you reduce your salt intake, that plaque is still going to be there, increasing your risk of a CVD event.

Additionally when we look at the results of INTERSALT, age-related increases in blood pressure only seemed to occur in populations consuming more than 2-3g salt per day, which suggests that in addition to acute rises in BP, higher salt consumption than this may also be responsible for much larger rises in the long term that are not reversed when salt consumption is dropped.

Taking that whole body of evidence in totality, I think it's hard to argue that the effects of salt on the risk of adverse health outcomes is akin to water weight.

> I could see where if one already had severe CVD, maybe eating more salt could be the straw that breaks the camel's back, and thus until they heal the CVD it could be wise to limit salt. But this would be no indication that the salt is the cause of the CVD or causes any long term chronic problem. And it is the long term chronic CVD that is by far the most important to address IMHO. If salt is not causing that, this whole discussion is largely misdirected energy.

Again, even small increases in BP over normal range (and even slightly below - we tend to see increases in risk once systolic BP rises about 110) is associated with increases in CVD, so the raised blood pressure is one of the forces driving that long term chronic CVD.

> We disagree here but that's a separate issue from salt so I'll leave it. :)

Well if you're open-minded about the topic but think refined oils are a health risk, you're the same as I was a few years ago. I ended up changing my view on the topic. If you think there's a health concern not addressed by https://uprootnutrition.com/blog/seedoils I'd be genuinely interested to know.

> And this is where I think salt has been scapegoated in a way that probably just distracts from the root problem as I describe above.

I think the evidence very strongly suggests that sodium consumption is one of the root problems driving chronic health issues in the West.

Re: California passes law to ban ultra-processed foods from school lunches

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said: > if you'd picked a slightly different set of CVD-correlated biomarkers you would have got exactly the opposite result. So the evidence I’m looking for is empirics showing CVD correlated biomarkers that suggest a beneficial effect from consuming levels of sodium above recommended levels. Without that evidence then I don’t see why we should believe they would have got the opposite result if they picked other…

What's wrong with eggs btw? The only thing I can easily find is that they have saturated fat - but it takes 4.5 eggs to have as much saturated fat as 1tbsp of butter. Aside from 1 year of strict vegan diet, I've eaten an average of 4 eggs with 1tbsp butter mostly daily for my entire adult life (I'm 34), and also ate eggs regularly in childhood, and I seem to be in excellent health with no known issues. But I'm curiou…

The evidence base on eggs is a funny one because of: 1. Genetic traits influencing response to dietary cholesterol. 2. The effect of baseline dietary cholesterol on the impact of additional dietary cholesterol (if you're already consuming ~300mg/d cholesterol, adding more on top is unlikely to increase risk by much). 3. The effect of baseline CVD risk on the impact of egg consumption.

Generally when we take this into consideration, we see a linear increase in risk from increased egg consumption. For example this paper suggests that the higher your genetic risk for CVD, the higher the increase in risk from egg consumption, but even those with lower CVD risk see a ~6% increase in CVD events per 3 eggs/week increase: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000291652....

Additionally replacing the 1tbsp butter with plant oils would likely reduce ACM risk by ~17% (http://doi.org/10.1001/jamainternmed.2025.0205), but I'll be the first to admit that there's nothing that really replaces butter on a taste basis :D. Got to find the happy balance between health and hedonism IMO!

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