The collapse of the econ PhD job market • Hacker News Board

Re: The collapse of the econ PhD job market

#271

Post by monkeyelite » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:24 PM UTC

k2enemy wrote: post #82

DebtDeflation wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. My undergrad was in Economics (a long time ago). There was a time I thought about doing a PhD, but ended up doing an MS in Quant Finance instead. It's hard to believe that anyone can take a DSGE model seriously as a model of how the economy works. For the unaware - graduate level Economics is nothing like pop Economics, it's essentially an applied math degree. But the math in question is extremely wonky. Mostly…

> Mostly using Convex Set Theory and Brouwer Fixed Point Theorem from topology to prove the existence, uniqueness, and stability of a general equilibrium solution for a "market" of price-quantity commodity pairs. The assumptions needed to make it work are literally absurd. This is true for the first foundational courses in micro and macro. The profession has moved beyond this and the last forty plus years of research…

Even the undergrad is like this. I was shocked to learn it wasn’t a historical study of economic theory and instead a technical course in stats and modeling.

Re: The collapse of the econ PhD job market

#272

Post by Zigurd » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:24 PM UTC

Findeton wrote: post #247

cyberax wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Austrian School of economics doesn't use it Well, yeah. They're basically a cult with three rules: 1. The market is perfect. 2. If the market is not perfect, then it's the fault of the government. 3. If you have any questions, see 1.

No, they don't say that the market is perfect. And if you want a cult, that's the current keynesian economics. Anyway, I don't see any way around not using math. Because value is subjective and that means it's a ranking system of preferences, not based in nominal values.

No true Austrian Schools economist...

Re: The collapse of the econ PhD job market

#273

Post by monkeyelite » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:28 PM UTC

sarchertech wrote: post #89

lvl155 wrote: post #61

I know this is controversial but there are so many foreign students in the PhD programs across the country. Some programs actually favor non-US students. Some professors quite explicitly pick their own race despite that being highly illegal. I think higher ed in the US became a major scam.

The PhD student segregation was blatant even going back a few decades, but it was based on country of origin not race. You’d have a Chinese professor and all his students were Chinese, an Indian professor and all hers were Indian etc… The American born professors tended to have mostly American born students, but it was a bit more mixed. It’s hard to know whether this was based on the professor’s preference or the stu…

Of course the intent is not malicious. As a student you want someone who speaks your language and someone who understands you. And similarly for professors.

The absurdity is Americans assuming people won’t express in-group preference.

Re: The collapse of the econ PhD job market

#274

Post by alephnerd » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:28 PM UTC

lkrubner wrote: post #256

"Ordinary people—who watched their rent, groceries, and gas bills skyrocket—saw a profession more invested in protecting Democratic policy narratives than in telling the truth. The result is a self-inflicted torching of trust." This post is ridiculously partisan. The head of the Fed was Republican, the majority of the Fed has always been Republican, the money-printing response to the Covid-19 pandemic began in 2020 w…

Chris Brunet is part of the Canadian turned American Alt-Right movement having been a worked at the Daily Caller and "The American Conservative" [0]. Sort of like a Canadian and less sharp Oren Cass, and basically the same ideological pipeline that created "Rebel News".

He attempted a pre-doc at UChicago but didn't stand out, and had similar issues at his other conservative employers along with his personality.

One of my buddies was his peer in the program at the time, and from down the grapevine, he was dismissed for some, let's say "academic issues". The reason he failed in his Econ career was for similar reasons a large number of Econ majors can't hack it - they lacked the mathematical and computational sophistication needed in modern Econ.

He was right to call out Christine Gay for academic fraud, but it's a bit of a "pot meet kettle" kind of situation given his academic background.

The stereotype of what Econ is in common parlance is what has become "Political Science" in 2025. To succeed in a modern top tier Econ or PoliSci program, you will need data science and mathematical chops comparable to a bachelors in Applied Math or CS (excluding the systems programming portion). Heck, Government students gunning for grad school back at Harvard tend to take mathematical Game Theory classes with proofs comparable to those taken by CS and Applied Math majors.

This wouldn't have been bad in the policy world (plenty of non-technical "economists" on both sides) but his personality has made the actual Alt-Right and the traditional conservative right both detest him based on my friend and alumni group. One of the other comments on this thread about applied versus think tank and journalist background does resonate to my personal experience to a certain extent.

> the majority of all economists are Republican

I'd disagree with that. The majority of economists ik who ended up in academia or industry are largely split evenly ideologically, but in action don't really care one way or the other. They tend to have a "show me the data" mentality.

On top of that, while UChicago is nowhere near as conservative as it was when Friedman roamed the earth, it's Econ and PoliSci departments are very open to heterodox thought and various conservative leaning Econ and PoliSci grads have come out of the program.

[0] - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-brunet-28074a288

Re: The collapse of the econ PhD job market

#275

Post by giardini » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:29 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #14

danbrooks wrote: post #6

Academic hiring has taken a big hit with the uncertainty and decline in federal funding.

This needs to be stressed. It's not just uncertainty of grants. That's a given, even when fed is stable. Schools are questioning basic financial aid now. If Trump follows through on eliminating ED, no one is confident that there's a plan for any of the essential services and payments. . . Because there's never really been a plan for anything else. Higher education is scared right now.

Loughia says >"If Trump follows through on eliminating ED..."That would be a hard act to follow.

Re: The collapse of the econ PhD job market

#276

Post by monkeyelite » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:32 PM UTC

Workaccount2 wrote: post #102

SoftTalker wrote: post #76

The "Dismal Science"? It has never been a science. You can't run controlled experiments outside of small microeconomic scenarios, so nothing is falsifiable or repeatable. It's all just arguing about correlation and causation.

This is like saying meteorology is not a science. I'm sure you believe in climate change, and climatology is even more removed than meteorology... I've consistently found that people talking about the unscientific nature of economics are actually just upset with what it says, similar to people who are upset with what climatology says.

I agree with you that it means large amounts of agreed upon science would not fit that definition of science. Don’t you agree that’s an interesting and consistent observation though?

Re: The collapse of the econ PhD job market

#277

Post by estetlinus » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:35 PM UTC

chokominto wrote: post #248

Did they do extrapolation using paint? Omg

Thank you for noticing. What on EARTH was that abomination?

Re: The collapse of the econ PhD job market

#278

Post by giardini » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:36 PM UTC

lvl155 wrote: post #61

I know this is controversial but there are so many foreign students in the PhD programs across the country. Some programs actually favor non-US students. Some professors quite explicitly pick their own race despite that being highly illegal. I think higher ed in the US became a major scam.

This has probably been true forever. I considered applying for an internship at a medical center back in the 80's. My adviser laughed and told me it was a slot created by an Indian professor and was intended to be filled by an Indian student.

Re: The collapse of the econ PhD job market

#279

Post by ProjectArcturis » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:37 PM UTC

searine wrote: post #261

giardini wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've been producing far more PhD graduates than we need for decades. Each year a relative few get jobs (e.g., university professor) appropriate to the training, while the rest are unceremoniously dumped by the railroad track to fend for themselves. Same for MS, BS, BA et al. Overall we have far more highly-trained people than we need for most all degree programs. It's not like the USA needs a butt-load of "math PhD'…

Having an excess PhD level citizens is every free countries wet dream. Its bonkers that people think it is somehow a negative. It is a recipe for innovation. Most of those people want to do things with their knowledge, not teach classes. Most go to business who use that knowledge to innovate and increase profit. Businesses literally get an excess of highly educated workers for (almost) free, and for some reason the M…

The situation certainly sucks for the actual PhD holders. Go through 5-8 years of intense work and minimal pay, and the outcome is maybe a 10% chance of getting the job you want?

It's unsustainable. I got my PhD 20 years ago, but I would certainly advise my children to avoid it.

Re: The collapse of the econ PhD job market

#280

Post by monkeyelite » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:39 PM UTC

searine wrote: post #258

elevation wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly, the actual threat to knowledge generation? Institutions that absorb societal-scale science budgets while perpetuating systemic fraud. Institutional administrators confiscate 50, 60, 70% of every research grant. Institutions demand published work even when results do not warrant it, and demote professors honest enough to document a null result. The peer review system then rubber stamps papers with no actual rev…

This is anti-intellectual propaganda. Seriously, 90%? None of what you said is happening at anywhere near that scale. Touch grass.

Professors have told me it doesn’t matter which administration is in - they just need to rebrand their project to meet funding requirements. Isn’t that a scary thought? We have no visibility and they are skilled enough to transform into any form.