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Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

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Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#271

Post by deaux »

comprev wrote: post #226
mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you live with yourself?

How is it any different from working at a gambling company writing addictive software? There will always be someone willing to do the work if the pay is good enough.

How is it different from smuggling fentanyl or taking hostages for ransom?

There will always be someone willing to do the work if the pay is good enough.

The former almost certainly causes much less societal damage than working for a pharma company that strives to get the whole population addicted to opioids, due to the scale constraints that come with running an underground business vs. an "above board" one.

Why do you think that gambling companies pay above the industry average for the required skillset?

Because luckily there are many other people with me who won't work for them, so they have a smaller pool of candidates and need to pay more.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#272

Post by ajross »

AdieuToLogic wrote: post #151
bigiain wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a lot of people in our world need to spend a little more time in introspection. Sadly, I suspect most or all of the investor class of people "in our world" have done this introspection. They've checked with their peers and lawyers, and decided it's a perfectly acceptable risk to have the founders and staff of a company they're already invested in do illegal things and potentially end up in jail, if it makes…

> They've checked with their peers and lawyers, and decided it's a perfectly acceptable risk to have the founders and staff of a company they're already invested in do illegal things and potentially end up in jail ... No legitimate business person I have ever met holds this position, if for no other reason than criminal acts pierce the corporate veil[0]. > ... so long as the investors and their staff are all insulate…

> No legitimate business person I have ever met holds this position

Well, sure, that's true. But only because that's a no-true-scotsman fallacy in incubation. All these perps are "legitimate business people" until they aren't. And they cross that rubicon, almost to a person, still believing that they're legitimate business people and that this is all a clever hack.

It looks obvious only in hindsight when you're looking at the indictment.

What gets them in trouble is the clever hacking, not a fundamental moral flaw. Or conversely, we need to start treating clevery hackery with a lot more suspicion. It's fine to "cheat cleverly" in software design. Outside that world it's got some pretty ugly externalities.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#273

Post by qwertytyyuu »

array_key_first wrote: post #98
OskarS wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that you have a moral and ethical responsibility to say no when your manager asks you to do something illegal, even if it does cost you your job. The law is the law, and there is no excuse for breaking it. Your manager is certainly culpable, but if you act against the law, you are culpable as well. The exception is if you fear literal physical violence against you or others, or are being blackmailed or…

I think, for most people, getting the shit beaten out of them is a preferable outcome to losing their job. For most people, their job is the only thing standing between them and being homeless, losing their car, losing their kids, their partner, etc. This is why having a culture that treats firing people as no big deal leads to wack ass incentives. You can make people do almost anything if you threaten their job enou…

I don't think that applies to the mid to high level software engineers here

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#275

Post by throwaway173738 »

moron4hire wrote: post #96
fred_is_fred wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this pre-date flood zone maps or something? That's a way better indicator of risk than miles from the coast.

I don't know. This was 25 years ago and I was pretty young at the time. Clients being clients, they probably didn't know, either. Consulting being consulting, probably nobody would have sprung for it (the maps if they needed licensing, or even just the development to use them) if anyone did know.

FEMA provides them for free, but 25 years ago there may have been a great cost to using them in printed form.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#276

Post by ngriffiths »

It's funny how people's mindset shifts when they work for a company versus independent contracting, but this is another case (like salary negotiation) where it should be the same. If your client asked you to do something illegal you'd be thinking about liability and drop the client. If your employer does, you should realize not only do they not have to protect you, it's probably in their interest to turn around and blame it all on you!

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#277

Post by noir_lord »

jeffrallen wrote: post #269

Here's another thing to think about: if you are in IT ops, you might have access to private data that could be requested, without proper judicial review, by a three letter agency. When you receive a National Security Letter with a gag rule attached, how will you react? What action can you take that is both legal and also ethical? Because it is not just bosses that might try to pressure you into taking unethical actio…

Warrant Canary-like system?

Like "I hate the color purple, so if you ever see me in a purple baseball cap..." or something similar?

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#278

Post by f1shy »

teiferer wrote: post #205
jcz_nz wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

I think this have to ve public Information, giving the right to decide to the next employer. You may employ them, other people may not. I would at least ask some questions.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#279

Post by jeffrallen »

noir_lord wrote: post #277
jeffrallen wrote: post #269

Here's another thing to think about: if you are in IT ops, you might have access to private data that could be requested, without proper judicial review, by a three letter agency. When you receive a National Security Letter with a gag rule attached, how will you react? What action can you take that is both legal and also ethical? Because it is not just bosses that might try to pressure you into taking unethical actio…

Warrant Canary-like system? Like "I hate the color purple, so if you ever see me in a purple baseball cap..." or something similar?

The problem with a NSL is that the gag rule is pretty watertight. For example, "oops, I accidentally wrote my password on a bathroom wall" is gonna land you in a world of hurt.

You need to find a way to bring some of your other rights into balance (and conflict with) those of the state, to bring professionals who have a duty to protect your confidence to your defense.

The power of the state is asymmetric warfare against an individual, which is what they count on. You need leverage from other competing lawful protections working on your side.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#280

Post by mystraline »

teiferer wrote: post #205
jcz_nz wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

An 18 year old (HS senior) and a 15 year old (HS sophomore) can have sex together and thats a statutory rape charge that will follow you the rest of your life.

And say its 2 17 year olds, and you take nude pictures to send to your partner. Now, having sex is legal here, but a picture? Thats possessing 'child sexual assault imagery'. Nobody would think 17 year olds are 'children'. Even the law routinely charges them as adults.

And getting a felony at all follows you around, unless you can pay the danegeld to have it removed. Of course, staying clean isn't sufficient. Paying $10k or more is.

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