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Suno Studio, a Generative AI DAW

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Re: Suno Studio, a Generative AI DAW

#271

Post by Veedrac »

Aldipower wrote: post #189
Veedrac wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was using ‘consumer preference’ here as a proxy for ‘the things that people tend to care about.’ The point I'm highlighting is that it's weird that when AI audio comes up, there's a reliable crowd of people discrediting it for missing a thing that clearly doesn't matter that much to most people in most contexts. It's like, sure you can want things from music that are to your specific taste, but it's like coming int…

You still totally miss the point of this thread. Making music and creating art for the sake of enjoyment. Consumer preferences are irrelevant here. I am totally fine if you like AI music. And I am sure someone can create art by interweaving AI elements. And keep in mind, the training data for Suno is coming/gets stolen from someone like me who creates real music. Personally I do not enjoy to make music with some prop…

I think moritzwarhier's replies are highlighting that I didn't miss the point. Maybe I expressed it badly.

Re: Suno Studio, a Generative AI DAW

#272

Post by codedokode »

tummler wrote: post #256
frozenseven wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>skill >too lazy Again, I wholly reject the idea that there's a line between 'tech people' and 'art people'. You can have an interest in both art and tech. You can do both 'traditional art' and AI art. I also reject the idea that AI tools require no skill, that's clearly not the case. >nature This can so easily be thrown back at you. >why should anyone want to hear what "you" (ie: the machine) have to say? So why are…

• I didn't say there's a line between "tech people" and "art people". Why would there be? • We're having this discussion because people are trying to equate an auto-amalgamation/auto-generation machine with the artistic process, and in doing so, redefining what "art" means. • Yes, you can "be creative" with AI, but don't fool yourself-- you're not creating art. I don't call myself a chef because I heated up a microwa…

> I don't call myself a chef because I heated up a microwave dinner.

A better analogy would be "I don't call myself a chef when ordering from Uber Eats".

Re: Suno Studio, a Generative AI DAW

#273

Post by Veedrac »

moritzwarhier wrote: post #262
Veedrac wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument always seemed weird to me because it's obviously the case that ‘intent and creativity’ is at best a slim minority of consumer preference. If I want a simple dubstep line with random romantic words meaninglessly peppered in it, or the same 4 chord pop song as every other pop song, or you know, anything popular, that's easy. If I want something that's saying something interesting in the topics I find inte…

I was alive to hear the evolution of "dubstep" before it became a cliche (the wobble stuff). AI couldn't invent a new sound. The way you describe music, sure, there will be an AI that is able to provide you with a continuous stream of audiotory stimuli, like the Penfield Mood Organ from "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?". That's just not what makes art or music interesting to me, and why I also don't listen to au…

I also don't want mood playlists, the majority of the time. I'm saying I use AI generations for exactly the opposite — so that I can explore and listen to things that are more intellectually interesting in the ways I find intellectually interesting, because the human music it's easy to find is common denominator music.

The way you describe AI ('continuous stream of auditory stimuli') is the way I'd describe Spotify. Sure, you could use AI to make a faux Spotify, but, like, why would you? The popular stuff already has saturating supply, and it will sound much better than an AI generation.

Re: Suno Studio, a Generative AI DAW

#274

Post by mountainriver »

Is no one going to mention that the music industry at large despises Suno because they stole a lot of their training data?

Why do we continue to prop up these companies when there are ethical alternatives? We are rapidly replacing all experts with AI trained in their data, and all the money goes to the AI companies. It should be intuitively obvious this isn’t good.

Re: Suno Studio, a Generative AI DAW

#275

Post by frozenseven »

tummler wrote: post #256
frozenseven wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>skill >too lazy Again, I wholly reject the idea that there's a line between 'tech people' and 'art people'. You can have an interest in both art and tech. You can do both 'traditional art' and AI art. I also reject the idea that AI tools require no skill, that's clearly not the case. >nature This can so easily be thrown back at you. >why should anyone want to hear what "you" (ie: the machine) have to say? So why are…

• I didn't say there's a line between "tech people" and "art people". Why would there be? • We're having this discussion because people are trying to equate an auto-amalgamation/auto-generation machine with the artistic process, and in doing so, redefining what "art" means. • Yes, you can "be creative" with AI, but don't fool yourself-- you're not creating art. I don't call myself a chef because I heated up a microwa…

• The other guy certainly did. And your subsequent reply was an endorsement of his style of gatekeeping, so. I mean, just talk to some of the the more active people in AI art. Many of them have been involved in art for decades.

• If throwing paint at a canvas is art (sure, why not?) then so is typing a few words into a 'machine'. Of course many people spend a considerable amount more effort than that. No different than learning Ableton Live or Blender.

• See previous points.

Re: Suno Studio, a Generative AI DAW

#276

Post by lomase »

Applejinx wrote: post #220
lomase wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the act of creating this AI music provides joy to them... I think they are artist I used to release music that people listend to, but not anymore, now the only joy comes from making it for myself. Am I still an artist?

Is a scrapbooker an artist? If a scrapbooker is an artist because of what collage is, is a MtG card collector picking layouts to arrange their cards in the array of plastic sleeves you can get, an artist? If the MtG card collector is not an artist does that mean they're bad and need to stop?

If the MtG collector only orders the cards for the joy of making a pleasant composition and does not provide any function like finding the cards faster or keeping them in good shape.

I think they are doing art.

If the main reason is to keep their items clean, as much time as they use doing the composition or how good it looks, they are not artist.

Re: Suno Studio, a Generative AI DAW

#277

Post by moritzwarhier »

Veedrac wrote: post #273
moritzwarhier wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was alive to hear the evolution of "dubstep" before it became a cliche (the wobble stuff). AI couldn't invent a new sound. The way you describe music, sure, there will be an AI that is able to provide you with a continuous stream of audiotory stimuli, like the Penfield Mood Organ from "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?". That's just not what makes art or music interesting to me, and why I also don't listen to au…

I also don't want mood playlists, the majority of the time. I'm saying I use AI generations for exactly the opposite — so that I can explore and listen to things that are more intellectually interesting in the ways I find intellectually interesting, because the human music it's easy to find is common denominator music. The way you describe AI ('continuous stream of auditory stimuli') is the way I'd describe Spotify.…

I was also having Spotify in mind when writing about algorithmic curation and GenAI in music ;)

Regarding this:

> I'm saying I use AI generations for exactly the opposite — so that I can explore and listen to things that are more intellectually interesting in the ways I find intellectually interesting

I just have not found any AI music that would satisfy this description. But I am very interested in failure modes of GenAI. Especially in Suno, it was cracking me up at times.

I'm also sure there will be a space for interesting and/or challenging music generated with neural networks involved.

But I don't see any revolution here so far.

Care to share examples of AI-assisted music you find interesting? To elaborate, I don't find jarring or curious combinations of cliches interesting.

AI could not invent a new style, it seems to me. To repeat this point.

And I've never had any problem finding interesting music.

Key to me is diving into labels, artists and their philosophy, after I got interested into particular ones (the other way around doesn't work for me).

I adore discogs.com for that. Regarding interviews and stuff, there's sadly a huge decline in quality written material about music, I feel.

"Lowest-common-denominator music" is exactly what Suno produces, at least in my ears.

I could go on and list music I like, but generally avoid that.

Wait, I'll do it anyway for a bit... at the moment, I like

Punctum - Remote Sensing EP

(Caterina Barbieri)

and

AtomTM vs Pete Namlook - Jet chamber LP

just for example

I also love so much other music.

To me, such music is miles apart from the slop I heard from AI.

I heard there's research into generating music in the style of JS Bach as well. How's that going?

I'd guess: probably bot too well, because the genius of Bach is not only in complexity, or counterpoint rules.

His music is very emotional to me (at least the portions I like).

And, like any good music, it has moments of surprise. It's not just a formula, or a "vibe", or a "genre".

Could AI create a new Techno, a new Blues, a new Bossa Nova?

I doubt it.

Re: Suno Studio, a Generative AI DAW

#278

Post by radley »

codedokode wrote: post #254
radley wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, based on Spotify's recommendation engine, AI is absolutely sufficient to make anyone a creator ;P Almost all naturally-generated music is derivative to one degree or another. And new tools like AI provide new ways to produce music, just like all new instruments have done in the past. Take drum and bass. Omni Trio made a few tracks in the early 90s. It was interesting at the time, but it wasn't suddenly a gen…

> Take drum and bass. Omni Trio made a few tracks in the early 90s. It was interesting at the time, but it wasn't suddenly a genre. It only became so because other artists copied them, then copied other copies, and more and more kept doing it because they all enjoyed doing so. Musicians not just copy but everyone adds something new; it's like programmers taking some existing algorithm (like sorting) and improving it.…

> Musicians not just copy but everyone adds something new

Not everyone. I've followed electronic music for decades, and even in a paid-music store like Beatport, most artist reproduce what they've heard, and are often just a pale imitation because they have no idea of how to make something better. That's the fundamental struggle of most creatives, regardless of tool or instrument.

I haven't tried Suno, but I imagine it's doing something similar to modern software: start with a pre-made music kit and hit the "Randomize" button for the sequencer & arpeggiator. It just happens to be an "infinite" bundle kit.

Re: Suno Studio, a Generative AI DAW

#279

Post by radley »

j4coh wrote: post #166
radley wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, based on Spotify's recommendation engine, AI is absolutely sufficient to make anyone a creator ;P Almost all naturally-generated music is derivative to one degree or another. And new tools like AI provide new ways to produce music, just like all new instruments have done in the past. Take drum and bass. Omni Trio made a few tracks in the early 90s. It was interesting at the time, but it wasn't suddenly a gen…

You can do exactly what you describe with interdimensional Spotify. People can describe all kinds of fun and interesting things that can be statistically generated for them, but they still didn’t make anything themselves unlike in your other examples of using new tools. Japanese oldies became a trend for a while - the people who found and repopularised the music dont get to say they created it and how it’s so awesome…

> Maybe when there is actual AGI then the AI will get the creative credit, but that’s not what we have and I still wouldn’t transfer the creative credit to the person who asked the AGI to write a song.

When artists made trance, the creative credit didn't go to Roland for the JP-8000 and 909, even though Roland was directly responsible for the fundamental sounds. Instead, the trance artists were revered. That's good.

> Japanese oldies became a trend for a while - the people who found and repopularised the music dont get to say they created it and how it’s so awesome

I'd bet there are modern artists who sampled that music and edited it into very-common rhythm patterns, resulting in a few hit songs (i.e. The Manual by The KLF).

Re: Suno Studio, a Generative AI DAW

#280

Post by _DeadFred_ »

protocolture wrote: post #177
poulpy123 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

clicking on a button until you like what you hear is not "making music". I have nothing against these tools, but the hubris of the people using them is insane

Refining a request that generates music, is "making music" however you slice it.

When I commission a painting and tell the artist what I want painted, am I in fact the artist?
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