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Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

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Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#271

Post by vondur »

zackmorris wrote: post #184
Buttons840 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should go back to having the house filled with 1 representative per 10,000 people. Also, we should do something new and have all the representatives in the house be chosen by lottery. Normal people are not represented in congress, because politicians are not normal people, but if we chose people by lottery we would have a branch of congress filled with normal people. They would have time enough to study the issues…

I don't normally reply twice to the same thread, but I just wanted to say that I wish that the US had been founded with a co-equal branch of government comprised of people drawn via lottery (probably voluntary) like in ancient Greece: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition I believe that this was one of the great mistakes by our founders. I'm sure that many suggested it, but unfortunately their ideas were suppressed…

Ancient Greek politics were chaotic and violent, especially cities like Athens.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#272

Post by komali2 »

franktankbank wrote: post #168
komali2 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the value of your labor would increase as your expertise did, surely?

What does this have to do with my comment of inflation? You are actively working to undermine my labor and cast me aside via your company anyway. Very cool!

Wait, like, are you speaking hypothetically or are you feeling somehow I've personally done something to you? I'm very confused.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#273

Post by komali2 »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #162
komali2 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is one of the inherent contradictions of capitalism: the definition of "value" is reversed so that the system rewards the least valuable actors (investment bankers, middlemen, rent-seekers) and punishes the most valuable actors (teachers, firefighters, plumbers, sewage treatment plant workers, garbage collectors). Those who like this system, is this inevitable? If not, how can it be reversed? Or is it someh…

The problem is that huge swaths of people can do those "most valuable" jobs, so they will chronically undercut each other to a stable salary point. There is no conspiracy or scheme going on. Most people who set out to become a teacher or sewage plant worker are successful in doing so. Very few people who set out to be investment banker VP or real estate moguls succeed, but we hyper focus on those who do, ignoring (mo…

Your first paragraph I interpret as basically saying that the reason things are is because these jobs exist in a labor market, so that's just a restatement of my point that this is a negative aspect of capitalism.

The third paragraph argues for even more market mechanics involved in this labor market which I of course disagree would improve the situation.

Also there's a serious shortage of teachers in the USA which undermines your point imo.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#274

Post by ponector »

Buttons840 wrote: post #115
jparishy wrote: post #66

Wealth inequality is high. High enough you can feel it like a vibe in the air. The richest people in the world are telling everyone to get onboard with technology that is determined to make a lot of those same people's jobs redundant. All with an explicit goal of increasing the price of stock most of those people do not own. IMO there's two economies, maybe divided by those who participate in the stock market and tho…

Income taxes are higher than capital gains taxes. This isn't based on economic theory or anything, it's just a political choice we have made as a country. We've chosen to reward those who move money around and trade capital more than we reward those who labor. And this at a time when, supposedly, the country is trying to increase its ability to build things. I thought this specific fact worth mentioning.

>> This isn't based on economic theory or anything, it's just a political choice we have made as a country

Is it? I've heard that low capital gain taxes are better for long-term GDP growth.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#275

Post by 0xdde »

nonethewiser wrote: post #19

The poll is more interesting than the article: https://prod-i.a.dj.com/public/resources/documents/WSJNORCJu... 37% of people in the survey are unemployed. That is very high. Not at all representative of the general population (4 to 5%). 69% live in a home they or someone in their household owns. That sounds a lot like young adults yet to get off their feet. More interesting things: - opinion on economy and own financ…

Note that the data are not reported raw, though. While the sample does not match the population, it is post-stratified and weighted to reflect the US population. (See the last two pages of your link for the study methodology.)

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#276

Post by [deleted] »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #267
mcntsh wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument really breaks down when you consider that it requires a lot more training to become a teacher than an investment banker, and there is a massive shortage of teachers, and none of these factors makes teaching a lucrative career.

Becoming a teacher is far easier than successfully becoming an investment banker. Most people who try end up making teacher territory pay to push paper in a cubicle all day. And they don't even get summers off.

[deleted]

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#277

Post by coliveira »

nonethewiser wrote: post #181
coliveira wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There simply is not a static pool of resources. Economists and rich people indeed think in terms of scarce resources. Any economics book will tell you that it is about managing scarce resources. Rich people will never allow for example the government to give increasingly more money and resources to lower income people, because they fear there's note enough for them. They don't believe in abundance for everyone.

Scarce yes. Static, no.

If it's not static and it grows, then it cannot be scarce, unless you have a group that is always taking more of existing resources.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#278

Post by haleem123 »

the_snooze wrote: post #269
etblg wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I was an undergrad researcher back during the height of the Great Financial Crisis, Keep in mind that was 17 years ago, how do you know the job market is at all the same now?

What's fundamentally different that initiative and strategically picking your battles are no longer applicable? I'm on the other side of the hiring table now. I proactively look for students that exhibit these traits. I'm not the only one.

[dead]

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#279

Post by Analemma_ »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #192
jandrewrogers wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply incorrect. To make the tax incidence on wages and capital gains equivalent, you must first deduct losses due to inflation and risk. For wages, inflation and risk round to zero. For long-term capital gains inflation and risk are large and often the majority of the "gain". Short-term capital gains are already taxed like wages. In the US, unlike some other developed countries, there is a very limited abil…

Capital gains should be taxed as straight income. We should favor dividends over capital gains, which are harder to game with debt, PE burnouts, etc. Inflation should be low and we should make it in the interests of the rich that it stays so.

> Inflation should be low and we should make it in the interests of the rich that it stays so.

The prevailing opinion of a lot of progressive economists is just the opposite: standard policy for 40 years post-Volcker was to run with low inflation, loose money and slack labor markets, and probably all this did was keep wage growth depressed.

The brief inflationary period in 2022-2023 was fantastic for low-income workers, it was the only serious growth in real wages they'd seen in a half-century. But voters revolted and probably guaranteed we'll go back to the low inflation, high unemployment policy for another generation at least.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#280

Post by msgodel »

Analemma_ wrote: post #279
recursivedoubts wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capital gains should be taxed as straight income. We should favor dividends over capital gains, which are harder to game with debt, PE burnouts, etc. Inflation should be low and we should make it in the interests of the rich that it stays so.

> Inflation should be low and we should make it in the interests of the rich that it stays so. The prevailing opinion of a lot of progressive economists is just the opposite: standard policy for 40 years post-Volcker was to run with low inflation, loose money and slack labor markets, and probably all this did was keep wage growth depressed. The brief inflationary period in 2022-2023 was fantastic for low-income worke…

Growth in wages is meaningless if inflation consumes it.

My opinion is that inflation is generally a bad idea but the thing that really matters is inflation volatility. The market will adjust for whatever the inflation rate is (unless its extreme) but volatility just results in loss.

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