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Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

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Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#271

Post by crashbunny »

phtrivier wrote: post #265

Best summary ever for the TdF: [1] Kidding aside, this is one of those fields where I don't know how to use Occam's Razor. Given the fact: "in a sport that is mostly about physical capacity, some racers now routinely achieve better performances than racers that where dopped, but excaped controls, 20 years ago". What is the explanation that requires the less priors: * some teams have perfected training regimen, equipm…

I don't know if this is a big factor, but, kids for the last 10 years have had access to really good training techniques for free via youtube. Every kid has the opportunity to use the same training techniques as the professionals.

By the time they get serious and have access to professional coaches, they've had maybe 5 years of good quality training.

As well as bikes have improved a lot. Clothes have improved a bit. But the biggest factor of all are the drugs. I mean I don't know. I'm just cynical.

I think it's a level playing field, though. I think it was a level playing field during the armstrong era.

Maybe armstrong had better drugs, better doctors, but it's not like the other riders were clean.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#272

Post by sumo89 »

isk517 wrote: post #255
bogdan wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's also probably the most popular endurance sport I believe long distance running takes that spot

Depends on what is meant by popular. In terms of participation then running, in terms of non-participatory viewers then cycling is probably more popular

Yeah I meant viewership, tv coverage etc.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#273

Post by Azrael3000 »

brrrrrm wrote: post #225
david-gpu wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is actually a lot of strategy in road cycling. Remember for one thing that there are teams -- ask yourself why is that.

I wouldn't deny that (and probably should have caveated this in my OP), but compared to a basketball or football team, the benefit of smart play doesn't seem as significant compared to doping up and pressing hard.

I thought the same but after watching the Netflix TdF documentary I would not agree to your statement anymore. Team strategy plays a huge role as e.g. driving in the slipstream saves up to 40% of your energy expenditure.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#274

Post by Azrael3000 »

edding4500 wrote: post #73
gwelson wrote: post #16

I am definitely a layperson when it comes to organized sports, but from my POV it seems like competitive cycling attracts WAY more fraud/cheating/doping/etc. than many other kinds of sports. At least I have heard about it a lot more. I wonder why that is.

I think there are different factors. One is that doping in cycling had big media coverage, especially in the 90ies to 2010s. Media uncovered that basically everyone in the race org knew that doping was involved. See for example Cofidis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cofidis_(cycling_team) This adds to the perception that cycling is very prone to doping. Whether it is so more than other sports... I don't know. As was…

Not sure your last statement is necessarily correct, just think of the massive doping in the former soviet union. The prestige gained by countries due to e.g. the Olympics regularly causes people to use illicit means.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#275

Post by Azrael3000 »

jrm4 wrote: post #213
datadrivenangel wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skijumping has routine cheating with clothing that gives too much lift by being thicker than the regulations.

I mean, hard for me to regard this as "cheating" worth taking seriously. Unless those clothes have little propellers in 'em. :)

Why not? Its a big difference whether you go ski jumping in leggings or in a wingsuit. Obviously the difference in reality is less, but the principle stands

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#276

Post by jnpnj »

phtrivier wrote: post #265

Best summary ever for the TdF: [1] Kidding aside, this is one of those fields where I don't know how to use Occam's Razor. Given the fact: "in a sport that is mostly about physical capacity, some racers now routinely achieve better performances than racers that where dopped, but excaped controls, 20 years ago". What is the explanation that requires the less priors: * some teams have perfected training regimen, equipm…

> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVB7OX0Oa-Q

this is something I never expected to see on HN.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#277

Post by sumo89 »

kasey_junk wrote: post #116
cujo wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a safe bet that your big money sports (not cycling) have a lot more doping than cycling. the issue is that you can't report what you don't know. * cycling is a mix of moderate money and lots of drug testing. there are significant incentives to dope, but it's fairly hard to do these days since there is a lot of testing. * big money sports (in the us especially - nfl, mlb, nba) are the jokes of the testing world.…

The nfl testing regime is purely surprise testing based. The bigger difference is that endurance sports have more options for doping than others. Frankly, I think too many things are banned. Blood doping seems no worse than sleep chambers and hgh in correctly applied regimes would take some of the punishment out of football.

Maybe read some of the stories of the cyclists like Pantani doing blood doping. They would have to wake up every few hours through the night and do some cycling on a stationary bike to get their heart rate up or their heart might stop while they're asleep due to their blood being too thick. Sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber to boost the mitochondria is childs play in comparison.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#278

Post by kjkjadksj »

le-mark wrote: post #150
stockresearcher wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s too bad LeMond sold his bike company to Trek. I have a small collection of American-made bikes. Every single one of the brands was acquired by Trek and then shut down a few years later… The LeMond is probably my favorite. Great geometry, great road feel, and a fantastic paint job. I put some new wheels on it this spring and it gives it such a rad look. Totally modern and retro at the same time. Such a bike would…

I worked in a shop that sold LeMond bikes back in the 90s. Iirc they were generally a chromolly lugged frame. At the time a lot of the high end bikes were the same. Are these not common nowadays?

Most of the steel bikes you see sold are gaspipe. Lugged chromoly today you might have to dip into the remaining italian frame builders and they charge modern carbon prices for their steel.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#279

Post by kjkjadksj »

stockresearcher wrote: post #228
ubermonkey wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% no. I've been on the bench for about a year, but I spent the last 15 years as a pretty intense recreational cyclist. I was in the tier that you might describe as "the craziest you get without having a racing license." There were very few steel bikes on those rides -- say, less than 10-15%. Carbon is by far the most common material, followed by Ti for the more well-heeled folks. Most of the steel is "modern", but…

Sure, a modern drivetrain and brakes would be a necessity on a “LeMond reboot”. My new wheels have rim brakes - I would have added disc if I could. And the rear wheel/hub has room for an extra cog on the cassette. But I feel that once I wear everything out, I’m going to have to bite the bullet and get a new bike rather than fight against the lack of new equipment that fits old bikes :(

No you won’t. Shimano still makes new 7 speed groups even.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#280

Post by Aperocky »

cogman10 wrote: post #263
Aperocky wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That weight comes obvious in components. All teams are required to use widely available components and it's quite easy to spot one that's not normal. For the bike builds that are 4kg or even less, it's quite obvious that all components are non-standard. You can save at max a bidon before rousing suspicion, and the whole operation is just not feasible in terms of cost vs. benefit.

> the whole operation is just not feasible in terms of cost vs. benefit. Batteries and a motor are a huge benefit. Even if you can't squeeze in a full blown motor or 1kwh of battery, just getting an additional 200 or 300 kwh of assist in can make a huge difference. As for cost, these guys are already doing crazy things like blood doping just to get a tiny edge.

By contrast, blood doping is much easier to get away with. Claim you had an altitude camp, inhaled CO or whatever, but you carry your blood with you.

A small motor had to fit in the tubes, somehow connect to a control, have to be integrated into the gearing which are constantly under about 300 W of torque and can be easily discovered via X-ray or maybe heat gun. That's a lot more risk vs. a much smaller reward since your laptop sized battery is likely less juice than a single energy gel.

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