Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

ibtimes.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 283 posts

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#271

Post by [deleted] »

davidgerard wrote: post #256
pyman wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no evidence for that. It's very easy to write in a blog post "they told me" or "an engineer said". Why don't they contact the Head of AI, Craig Saunders (ex-Director of Amazon AI), and ask him directly. This was never done, which raises serious doubts about the credibility of the person who wrote it. We need to stick to the facts, especially now that pseudo-journalists are flooding the web with fake news. Let…

Literally a news story where they spoke to the engineers. Verdict: stop shilling.

[deleted]

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#272

Post by scothooker »

pyman wrote: post #260
redeyedtreefrog wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a former employee from a few years ago. I didn't stay very long at all though. In 2019 its former Chief Business Officer sued them for fraud, claiming that apps were built by Indian developers despite the claim that it was "80%" done by AI. There were detailed articles in the Wall Street Journal and The Verge at the time. I've found one reference saying it was settled out of court (the Telegraph), though I thoug…

Thanks for sharing this inside information. It's really helpful and gives me (and others researching this case) a better understanding of what was happening behind closed doors. I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind: 1. I checked on LinkedIn and saw that most employees are based in India. Is that correct? 2. From what I understand, customers knew their apps were being built by developers, and they could use…

[dead]

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#274

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

pyman wrote: post #270
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify, are you saying that the quotes the WSJ publshed, attributed to the founder, are "fake news"?

The founder was named UK Entrepreneur of the Year in 2024 by Ernst & Young, a company that also has a strong focus on AI research (some of my students work there). They do proper research before giving out an award. Going back to your question: You're quoting articles from 2019. Do you realise how quickly technology and startups evolve in a single year, let alone 6? We can't assume nothing has changed since then, esp…

>> You're quoting articles from 2019. Do you realise how quickly technology and startups evolve in a single year, let alone 6?

So that I don't misunderstand what you mean, do you mean that Builder.ai evolved into using less AI than what they were using in 2019?

That is, do you mean that in 2019 roughly 82% of an app the company had recently developed “was built autonomously, in the first hour” by Engineer.ai’s technology, according to the quote above, and during the next 6 years the company evolved so that less of their apps' code was built by AI?

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#275

Post by pyman »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #274
pyman wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The founder was named UK Entrepreneur of the Year in 2024 by Ernst & Young, a company that also has a strong focus on AI research (some of my students work there). They do proper research before giving out an award. Going back to your question: You're quoting articles from 2019. Do you realise how quickly technology and startups evolve in a single year, let alone 6? We can't assume nothing has changed since then, esp…

>> You're quoting articles from 2019. Do you realise how quickly technology and startups evolve in a single year, let alone 6? So that I don't misunderstand what you mean, do you mean that Builder.ai evolved into using less AI than what they were using in 2019? That is, do you mean that in 2019 roughly 82% of an app the company had recently developed “was built autonomously, in the first hour” by Engineer.ai’s techno…

Why would you come to that conclusion? Its really not that hard to understand.

They already had a library of templates, modules, components, and existing code, which they were likely reusing.

According to their website, their virtual assistant interacts with customers to understand requirements, recommends suitable templates, and assembles a basic version of the app automatically. Then assigns developers to that project, as shown on their site. In one of their blog posts, they mentioned using machine learning to generate dependency graphs, which was used to map out what needed to be built and estimate timelines.

Since 2019, they've expanded their AI and ML team and hired the former Director of AI from Amazon.

The issue here is that you're quoting articles published before GenAI or ChatGPT even existed. Back then, AI mostly referred to machine learning, it was a different landscape entirely.

I'm only interested in understanding why they lied about their finances. Because the tech they had was actually quite impressive.

We'll never know if they were reusing 40, 60, or 80 percent of the code. What we do know is that developers were spending 7 months (based on a screenshot from their website) writing code. So GenAI clearly wasn't used to generate the code. But to be fair, they never claimed it was.

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#276

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

pyman wrote: post #275
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> You're quoting articles from 2019. Do you realise how quickly technology and startups evolve in a single year, let alone 6? So that I don't misunderstand what you mean, do you mean that Builder.ai evolved into using less AI than what they were using in 2019? That is, do you mean that in 2019 roughly 82% of an app the company had recently developed “was built autonomously, in the first hour” by Engineer.ai’s techno…

Why would you come to that conclusion? Its really not that hard to understand. They already had a library of templates, modules, components, and existing code, which they were likely reusing. According to their website, their virtual assistant interacts with customers to understand requirements, recommends suitable templates, and assembles a basic version of the app automatically. Then assigns developers to that proj…

So you mean that Builder.ai is using more AI now than they used in 2019? In other words, more than "roughly 82%" of apps the company now develops is built "autonomously, in the first hour by Engineer.ai’s technology"?

Note that generative AI and LLMS like GPT, Elmo and BERT existed earlier than 2019 and were the subject of much research (see "BERTology").

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#277

Post by pyman »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #276
pyman wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you come to that conclusion? Its really not that hard to understand. They already had a library of templates, modules, components, and existing code, which they were likely reusing. According to their website, their virtual assistant interacts with customers to understand requirements, recommends suitable templates, and assembles a basic version of the app automatically. Then assigns developers to that proj…

So you mean that Builder.ai is using more AI now than they used in 2019? In other words, more than "roughly 82%" of apps the company now develops is built "autonomously, in the first hour by Engineer.ai’s technology"? Note that generative AI and LLMS like GPT, Elmo and BERT existed earlier than 2019 and were the subject of much research (see "BERTology").

I'm not sure what you're referring to. I don't think you understand the difference between automation, traditional AI, and generative AI.

Back in 2019, when someone said part of an app was built "autonomously", it usually meant they reused components and generated the glue logic, configurations, or some custom code around it. In BuilderAI's case, they said they were using AI/ML to create dependency graphs. Just read their blog, it's all there!

The Transformer paper came out in 2017, and the first time I heard of GPT was in 2019. At that point, only a few companies like Google and OpenAI were working on LLMs. If you're expecting BuilderAi, a small startup from India with limited funding, to compete with multibillion dollar companies in 2019, then you're being delusional.

I don’t think I can be of any further help. Apologies.

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#278

Post by pyman »

pyman wrote: post #265
redeyedtreefrog wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you scroll down it also says 60% of the code is automated. Both percentages are essentially meaningless. If you require customers to type all their requirements into a static web based form does that also count as 80% automated information gathering? If 60% of an application is templated components does that mean code generation is 60% automated? It's meaningless, and I suspect intentionally so. It clearly implies…

I agree, it's confusing. It looks like marketing was throwing numbers around without really explaining what they meant. Automation is definitely not AI. Maybe the 60% referred to reusable code, or a theme, or a template that was handed off to the developers? Either way, 60% feels like a random number.

Small correction: automation combined with machine learning is considered AI.

So the 60% was probably referring to the amount of code (templates, components, etc) they were reusing.

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#279

Post by immibis »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #52
andrei_says_ wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or “auto pilot”

Auto pilot is pretty good at driving within the same lane. Just like a plane pilot needs to do the more complicated stuff like take off and landing, one can expect the same with autopilot (just changing lanes and stopping at lights or stop signs or turning). Full self driving is the mislabeled one. Should be “90% self driving”.

Modern planes can land themselves - not sure about taking off. They can land in zero visibility like this. In this case the pilot is expected to double, triple, quadruple check the automated systems constantly, not just sit back and relax. The plane and airport both need special equipment. And the whole thing is a controlled closed system unlike the roads.

Re: Builder.ai Collapses: $1.5B 'AI' Startup Exposed as 'Indians'?

#280

Post by immibis »

ahazred8ta wrote: post #103
Supermancho wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism rewards dishonesty. Every company is a grifter to some degree. This is more widespread in technical service companies.

In eastern europe (COMECON) during the cold war days, the factories were famous for cranking out products that claimed to do something but did not deliver on the promise. Did they do that because they were run by capitalists? Google China melamine contaminated milk.

We are talking about capitalism because we live in capitalism and are observing problems with capitalism. We are not currently living in the USSR.
Post reply on HN