Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

cleantechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 503 posts

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#271

Post by looofooo0 »

numpad0 wrote: post #265
jimnotgym wrote: post #255

I can't agree with the underlying idea of this article at all. 1) hydrogen buses must be more expensive than electric. I don't see how that is true. Hydrogen uses an ICE that is much cheaper to purchase than batteries + motor. Of course early stage niche designs might be more expensive, but that doesn't mean that it will be more expensive at scale 2) somehow the hydrogen fuel must be a long way from the bus depot, be…

Hydrogen vehicles are EVs too. They don't run H2 through a piston engine, it goes through a catalytic converter that generates electricity, aka Fuel Cell. Toyota FC stack costs ~$11k, about the same if not cheaper than a 100kWh worth of Li-ion cells.

We are at 60$ on the cell Level.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#272

Post by lostlogin »

xbmcuser wrote: post #186
pjscott wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have actual knowledge of their motives? Or is this speculation, confidently stated as fact? Another possible motive, mentioned in the the paragraph you quote, is that the oil companies see an energy transition coming and are trying to get aboard the hydrogen train to diversify their future revenue sources. And that sounds like a reasonable motive; the sort of thing that people who don't see themselves as evil…

The current US administrations moves against renewables should make you realize how powerful the oil gas lobby is. They got some pushback from local politicians so were slowed down but the way they started they were looking to end all wind and solar for a false promise of nuclear tomorrow.

> The current US administrations moves against renewables

It is promoting electric cars fairly forcefully.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#273

Post by VBprogrammer »

numpad0 wrote: post #265
jimnotgym wrote: post #255

I can't agree with the underlying idea of this article at all. 1) hydrogen buses must be more expensive than electric. I don't see how that is true. Hydrogen uses an ICE that is much cheaper to purchase than batteries + motor. Of course early stage niche designs might be more expensive, but that doesn't mean that it will be more expensive at scale 2) somehow the hydrogen fuel must be a long way from the bus depot, be…

Hydrogen vehicles are EVs too. They don't run H2 through a piston engine, it goes through a catalytic converter that generates electricity, aka Fuel Cell. Toyota FC stack costs ~$11k, about the same if not cheaper than a 100kWh worth of Li-ion cells.

And the number of hydrogen powered vehicles sold year on year is currently decreasing. As are the number of places to fill them up in the UK at least.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#274

Post by VBprogrammer »

globular-toast wrote: post #263
jimnotgym wrote: post #255

I can't agree with the underlying idea of this article at all. 1) hydrogen buses must be more expensive than electric. I don't see how that is true. Hydrogen uses an ICE that is much cheaper to purchase than batteries + motor. Of course early stage niche designs might be more expensive, but that doesn't mean that it will be more expensive at scale 2) somehow the hydrogen fuel must be a long way from the bus depot, be…

The neat thing with JCB is the hydrogen engines are very similar to the diesel engines, and everything else (transmission etc) is the same. In fact, the engines use the exact same block but with a slightly different head. That means all the expertise and parts required to service these machines in the field is already there. If a battery bus breaks down it'll be on the back of a diesel lorry and back to the depot.

Ever met a diesel mechanic? Every one I've ever come across has a very distinctive diesel cologne. I worry how this plays out in the field when combined with a 10,000psi gas which is explosive is almost any mixture including oxygen.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#275

Post by TulliusCicero »

cheema33 wrote: post #269
01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote: post #23

Because people are allergic to hybrids and I don't know why "Electric is short range, fuel is expensive, guess I have to pick one" The ideal drivetrain was invented over 20 years ago by Toyota and apparently nobody but me and Honda noticed it!

> The ideal drivetrain was invented over 20 years ago by Toyota and apparently nobody but me and Honda noticed it! I bought and drove a 2005 Prius for about 10 years. Loved it. But I would never buy another hybrid. My family now owns 3 EVs. Hybrids are better than pure ICE vehicles. But EVs are much much better than both of them. I could tell you about all the benefits of EVs, but until you own one, it may not sink i…

Hybrids are better for road trips in my experience. We have an EV and a hybrid, and nearly always choose the hybrid for road trips, because the EV needs to stop 2x as often, for 3-4x as long.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#276

Post by VBprogrammer »

sholladay wrote: post #214

They keep falling for it because fixed route busses are the one use case where hydrogen could theoretically make sense. The bus can fill up far faster than it could recharge an equivalent battery. The bus gets lighter and more efficient as it uses fuel. And crucially, it can always fill up at the same place, which really ought to be the central depot where all the buses in that network return to. But inevitably with…

> The bus gets lighter and more efficient as it uses fuel.

This argument is weak. To get any kind of reasonable energy density you have to compress hydrogen to 10,000psi. The tanks to contain a gas at that pressure are heavy enough that the weight of gas inside is almost negligible. Especially in ground vehicles which aren't hugely sensitive to weight.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#277

Post by belorn »

xbmcuser wrote: post #186
pjscott wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have actual knowledge of their motives? Or is this speculation, confidently stated as fact? Another possible motive, mentioned in the the paragraph you quote, is that the oil companies see an energy transition coming and are trying to get aboard the hydrogen train to diversify their future revenue sources. And that sounds like a reasonable motive; the sort of thing that people who don't see themselves as evil…

The current US administrations moves against renewables should make you realize how powerful the oil gas lobby is. They got some pushback from local politicians so were slowed down but the way they started they were looking to end all wind and solar for a false promise of nuclear tomorrow.

The last decades' worth of German administrations (and EU countries in general) removed nuclear on the promise of a cheap grid made from green hydrogen and renewables. What they delivered was a EU grid dependent on imported natural gas and a record high ~€400 billions energy subsidies.

It is hard to see whose promise of a bright future seems most realistic.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#278

Post by jimnotgym »

jonp888 wrote: post #264
jimnotgym wrote: post #255

I can't agree with the underlying idea of this article at all. 1) hydrogen buses must be more expensive than electric. I don't see how that is true. Hydrogen uses an ICE that is much cheaper to purchase than batteries + motor. Of course early stage niche designs might be more expensive, but that doesn't mean that it will be more expensive at scale 2) somehow the hydrogen fuel must be a long way from the bus depot, be…

1) Hydrogen combustion engines exist, but are extremely inefficent. For this reason all Hydrogen buses currently in use use fuel cells, which are expensive and complicated. That you were unaware of this makes me doubt the rest of your commentary. 2) There is a huge existing logistics network which conveys diesel to all corners of the world. The same, in a sense for electricity. For Hydrogen this doesn't exist. 5) The…

> 5) The chairman of JCB wrote to all his employees before the Brexit referendum to say how he was absolutely convinced it would be a brilliant success and would lead to great prosperity for Britain. So probably not the best people to take strategy advice from.

Thank you, a template ad hominem. I'll cut that out and put it in my scrap book

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#279

Post by jimnotgym »

numpad0 wrote: post #265
jimnotgym wrote: post #255

I can't agree with the underlying idea of this article at all. 1) hydrogen buses must be more expensive than electric. I don't see how that is true. Hydrogen uses an ICE that is much cheaper to purchase than batteries + motor. Of course early stage niche designs might be more expensive, but that doesn't mean that it will be more expensive at scale 2) somehow the hydrogen fuel must be a long way from the bus depot, be…

Hydrogen vehicles are EVs too. They don't run H2 through a piston engine, it goes through a catalytic converter that generates electricity, aka Fuel Cell. Toyota FC stack costs ~$11k, about the same if not cheaper than a 100kWh worth of Li-ion cells.

JCBs engines are piston engines as some other commentators have mentioned

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#280

Post by jimnotgym »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #274
globular-toast wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The neat thing with JCB is the hydrogen engines are very similar to the diesel engines, and everything else (transmission etc) is the same. In fact, the engines use the exact same block but with a slightly different head. That means all the expertise and parts required to service these machines in the field is already there. If a battery bus breaks down it'll be on the back of a diesel lorry and back to the depot.

Ever met a diesel mechanic? Every one I've ever come across has a very distinctive diesel cologne. I worry how this plays out in the field when combined with a 10,000psi gas which is explosive is almost any mixture including oxygen.

How are we going to drive earth moving machinery then? Stick with diesel?
Post reply on HN