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Wall Street stocks tumble as investors fret over US economic slowdown

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Re: Wall Street stocks tumble as investors fret over US economic slowdown

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Has anything of consequence happened to Meta from 2016? Their stance is just a private company running ads. I worked at Meta on ads from 2013 to 2018. Fundamentally, Cambridge Analytica and their "psychographic profiling" was absolute garbage designed to hide their real business model (getting your opponents caught with hookers and blow). Like, at various times, we tried both using the Big 5 traits and hyper local…

I wasn't necessarily saying that FB single handedly manipulated an entire nation into making huge swings on a national election. But it doesn't need to. When an election is decided by some 6-7 swing states with extremely slim margins, targeting ads to those regions can change the result. A few thousand votes swung would barely register in any mass analysis as effective (nor would it be in any other proper ad campaign…

>I wasn't necessarily saying that FB single handedly manipulated an entire nation into making huge swings on a national election. But it doesn't need to. When an election is decided by some 6-7 swing states with extremely slim margins, targeting ads to those regions can change the result. A few thousand votes swung would barely register in any mass analysis as effective (nor would it be in any other proper ad campaign. It'd in fact be a gross failure of you spent millions to get maybe a few thousand buyers), but still change the result.

OK, if this happened in 2016 (which I honestly don't believe) then how come these techniques haven't become standard across all political advertising? This is a small field, and everyone talks to one another (particularly the data people).

Like, FB's systems were essentially incapable of optimising for this kind of thing, you could have spammed reach ads at people I suppose, but those generally (based on experiments i was involved in) don't tend to move in-person metric.

It's worth noting that Clinton didn't campaign in the Mid West in 2016, which again is a much more plausible explanation of why she lost than Trump's team being uniquely effective on FB ads (and if they were, why didn't the Republicans sweep the 2018 midterms and the 2020 Presidential?).

> I'll admit I haven't researched brexit's margins enough to see if that same theory sticks, so I won't comment much further on that example.

It was a million or two votes, so unlikely (no electoral college in UK referendums).

As I noted above, the fact that almost all print media were printing deceptive takes on the EU for twenty years is more likely to be driving the result.

> Now even ignoring all that: I feel the intent is the real damming part, not necessarily the success or lack thereof. As a recent example: Musk's campaign in Germany for the afd party failed overall, but it's still very bad taste for an outside party to try an influence a national election that is not representing them.

This is definitely wrong, but worth noting that the "West" broadly has been running influence operations like this all over the world for many, many years. While I sometimes have agreed with the goals here, I'd argue that this sort of thing is problematic regardless of said goals. (Amusingly, there's some evidence that the most consequential impact of Musk in Germany was the surge in support for Die/Der Linke (apologies I have always sucked at german grammar).

>The ultimate issue in all of this is people ignoring their best interests and falling for lies and misinformation (from all sources), but this chain was focused on media ads, so that's what I discussed.

Yeah, i too would prefer to live in a world where people voted differently, but ultimately the only judge of someone's best interests in a free society is what they themselves believe. And if they get suckered by a charlatan, then hopefully they'll learn from that. I'm not sure any other approach is compatible with democracy over the longer term.

Re: Wall Street stocks tumble as investors fret over US economic slowdown

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There were 5 such drops in 2020, 4 in 2022, and 1 in 2023. Somehow, the nation avoided ruin during those periods Come on, look at your numbers. Recession in 2020 with 5 blips on the monitor. Last quarter we saw negative real GDP Q1 ‘22, 4 blips. 1 blip in ‘23 and none in ‘24 while the economy did so well prices overheated. Now we’re seeing 1 blip in Q1. If we annualise that to 4 blips, it puts us back in the last y…

I am looking at the numbers. And what the numbers show is that a 10% drop happens on average every 1.2 years and is not something that needs Congress to get involved in every time it happens. If you can't tolerate 10% drops on a regularly occurring basis, the answer is not to beg Congress for help, it is to invest in something safer with lower returns.

> And what the numbers show is that a 10% drop happens on average every 1.2 years

Is the market done dropping?

Re: Wall Street stocks tumble as investors fret over US economic slowdown

#273
post #213
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The compromise between fucking insanity and good governance is not agreeing to go half way into fucking insanity. Meeting an unreasonable person half-way is giving them a blank cheque to become more unreasonable. All it does is tell them that you're a sucker.

Depends on what cards one is holding. Getting half of what one wants and not being driven off a cliff can be preferable to smiling in moral smugness while the car arcs through the air.

> smiling in moral smugness while the car arcs through the air

Sorry, why is this metaphorical car arcing through the air again? What's that all about?

Re: Wall Street stocks tumble as investors fret over US economic slowdown

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

also a long-time China hawk (like on the far end of hawkism)

And Canadians, apparently! "the only diplomats who were more treacherous and disingenuous than the Canadians were the Communist Chinese."

To be fair, Canada is the only country that has ever invaded the US :)

Re: Wall Street stocks tumble as investors fret over US economic slowdown

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And they’ll never be allowed to be full participants in a democracy This is what the elites often assert before the mobs with guillotines, torches, pitchforks, etc come for them. Who gets to decide who is a participant? Ultimately it's the group that seizes power. You might think that a tiny group of despotic people can hold out against the overwhelming majority (South Africans sure tried, and some are still bitter…

You couldn't feasibly overthrow the elite, because they would control the machines that automated the production. South Africa actually illustrates the problem. Post-Apartheid, South Africa is basically two countries in one country: a largely white, industrialized country participating in the globalized and financialized economy, and a largely black developing-nation economy. The black south africans cannot expel the…

> You couldn't feasibly overthrow the elite

Just to review: the South African apartheid regime was famously overthrown, peacefully.

> Post-Apartheid, South Africa is basically two countries in one country

Not where it matters. South Africans, no matter their ethnicity, all have the same vote and the same elected leadership. The place isn't perfect but it's no longer operating as a wholly morally repugnant regime.

This is just one example, mind you. It's the whole "The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice" pattern. Despotic rule by a tiny minority never lasts, no matter what temporary technological advantages they might have.

Re: Wall Street stocks tumble as investors fret over US economic slowdown

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a specific aspect of the administration's policies which you believe are causing this? Candidates would include "actual impact of tariffs enacted" or "uncertainty about future tariffs" or the same things but with "geopolitical decisions" instead of tariffs. Or similarly "fiscal solvency" or "profile of government spending" etc. It's all well and good to make untestable post facto explanations based on vibes…

Tariffs are a well known ineffectual move by anyone with any experience in finance. They are simply the addition of inefficiency to a market. You are taught this in any 101 Econ course, its part and parcel of learning how to draw supply and demand curves. It is SO basic, that discussion of this on educated forums, is fear inducing. Furthermore, this is a trade war based on vibes. This is not implemented with somethin…

It sounds like you're making a principled argument against tariffs. That's great, and whether you're right or wrong is independent of the stock market reaction. And there's a fine discussion to be had on the merits of tariffs and tariff uncertainty on economic activity.

But attributing short-term market movement to a specific phenomenon is, to put it bluntly, plain foolishness. Ex post facto reasoning is almost always an absurd task and it's important to push back on it, *especially* when it confirms your own biases.

Re: Wall Street stocks tumble as investors fret over US economic slowdown

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada imposed targeted tarrifs on certain Chinese products, increasing their cost for Candadian consumers to level the playing field. China didn't pay Canada a dime. The United States on the other hand is planning a blanket tariff with certain carveouts, and the current administration seems to believe it will be foreign countries paying the United States as a result. When in reality, it will be American consumers an…

The tariffs are for different purposes. Canada's tariffs were to prop up their automotive industry. America's tariffs are to encourage nations to so more to stop importing illegal drugs into the US.

That doesn't make sense.

How does charging American consumers and businesses an additional 25-50% tax on purchases and imports accomplish that?

Re: Wall Street stocks tumble as investors fret over US economic slowdown

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do they need to? Messaging and frankly national security.

So the EU needs to hit back for "national security" reasons against the country which has subsidised their security to the tune of tens of trillions. ...yep, makes perfect sense.

> the EU needs to hit back for "national security" reasons against the country which has subsidised their security to the tune of tens of trillions

The loyalists argued the same in the American Revolution. (You’re also falsely conflating Musk and America.)

Re: Wall Street stocks tumble as investors fret over US economic slowdown

#279
post #12
post #2

The Russian Ruble is up 3%. (No joke) https://www.google.com/finance/quote/RUB-USD

Ruble exchange rate is propaganda. It was not possible to freely convert it for a long time. And black market rate was always very different from the official one.

That's not true. I'm sending money to my mother in Russia from time to time and the exchange rate is close to real.

Re: Wall Street stocks tumble as investors fret over US economic slowdown

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tariffs are a well known ineffectual move by anyone with any experience in finance. They are simply the addition of inefficiency to a market. You are taught this in any 101 Econ course, its part and parcel of learning how to draw supply and demand curves. It is SO basic, that discussion of this on educated forums, is fear inducing. Furthermore, this is a trade war based on vibes. This is not implemented with somethin…

It sounds like you're making a principled argument against tariffs. That's great, and whether you're right or wrong is independent of the stock market reaction. And there's a fine discussion to be had on the merits of tariffs and tariff uncertainty on economic activity. But attributing short-term market movement to a specific phenomenon is, to put it bluntly, plain foolishness. Ex post facto reasoning is almost alway…

This is not a principled argument.

This is the actions people I know are taking to manage investments.

Look - I can’t help you if you wish to believe something.

That’s an issue of faith.

I have no idea why you believe that this is ex post facto reasoning.

Tariffs cause recessions, it’s not even correlation.

Let me elaborate - the moment Trump was elected, I knew that he was going to impose tariffs, and that it was going to tank the US economy.

If you want logic, I can debate. If this is a matter of faith and belief that this is some error on my part and that no one can know things are causative - then that’s a matter of faith and religion.

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