How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed • Hacker News Board

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#271

Post by NalNezumi » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 4:04 PM UTC

alecco wrote: post #8

Japanese carmakers are going to become irrelevant [1] unless there's a major change. But that's very unlikely due to: 1. Supply chains and key raw materials mostly controlled by China 2. Japan's demographic collapse 3. Japanese Gen Z fed up with an unwinnable rat race where they live to just pay rent and groceries It's very sad. [1] https://carnewschina.com/2025/01/13/byd-surpass-toyota-in-ja...

I can understand point 1. But the other points seems odd to me. 2 is same in China, just delayed by maybe a decade or two but way way way worse due to one child policy.

As for point 3 it also feels odd. When we check stats in the 3 Asian Tigers, the rat race (and young population sentiment around it) seems like Japan < South Korea <<< China. And usually my friends from those countries usually feel the same way. Lie down movement, all the frustration in SK showed to the world through their entertainment kinda shows this too.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#272

Post by yubblegum » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 4:19 PM UTC

ty6853 wrote: post #144

thuddrff567gg wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be the classic way in which management types destroy technical companies. Same thing happened a decade back in electronics companies in Japan (Sony comes to mind). Technical competence is generally very hard to judge and often even harder replace. It's not surprising that the same management types are salivating at the thought of replacing people with AI.

Ghosn was trained as an engineer at École des Mines de Paris after a humble background in the 3rd world including continual sickness from unsanitary waterwater. He worked from the bottom up in R&D at Michelin and did the impossible turning it around during hyperinflation period in Brazil. By all estimations he's a genius with as good of chops as anyone could ask for his responsibilities, with a unique set of citizens…

[dead]

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#273

Post by mikeyouse » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 4:19 PM UTC

smcin wrote: post #260

mikeyouse wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protip - you should care if he raped 12 nuns! Japan's justice system, while certainly has issues is universally considered to be one of the worlds' fairest. Their high conviction rate is solely due to taking so few cases to judgement as most plead out.

Not so - Japan's [criminal] justice system is absolutely not "universally considered to be one of the worlds' fairest". Cite any authoritative source for claiming that. Most sources I found cite the Nordic countries or other W European countries. (A high conviction rate at trial in Japan is merely due to not having a right-to-silence, imprisonment till trial, prosecutors discretionarily dropping some cases.)

Japan is 14th here (above UK, Belgium, France, Spain and the US): https://worldjusticeproject.org/rule-of-law-index/global/202...

Most of the stereotypes of the Japanese justice system are outdated, and it's pretty funny to hear one of the wealthiest people in the world claim he wouldn't get a fair trial there while he was walking free with unrestricted access to his lawyers after numerous arrests for serious financial crimes.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#274

Post by __turbobrew__ » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 4:22 PM UTC

gottorf wrote: post #151

kridsdale1 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re over regulated. All the geography and materials in the world. They aren’t building because they can’t do it affordably. My friends in Vancouver had a vacant lot in a prime area and money. They had to wait for three years to be approved to start.

This seems to be a problem especially concentrated in the Anglosphere. Britain[0], Canada, Australia, and to a lesser degree in the US due to its libertarian streak. I wonder why that's the case? [0]: https://ukfoundations.co/

I don’t know about the others but many in Canada believe they have the right to an unchanging environment. They just want to “get theirs”, kick out the ladder, and everything stops at that point.

Homeowners still make up the majority of the voter base so they will vote for municipal candidates which prioritize not changing things.

My prediction is that things will inevitably flip when the “have not” group becomes larger than the “have” group, but that might not be for a while as home ownership only became truly unbearable maybe 10-15 years ago.

Another factor is that generational wealth plays a big role in home ownership. The dirty secret is those mid 20s couples down the street did not purchase that house on their own, the either got cosigned by another family member with a hefty down payment gift or they inherited wealth from grandma. There is no estate or gift taxes here so families can perpetuate class transfers forever.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#275

Post by hammock » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 4:35 PM UTC

teleforce wrote: post #154

alexey-salmin wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, the Renault Logan (and the B platform in general) was extremely good from the engineering standpoint. Cheap, reliable, easy to maintain, easy to fix. The technical competence in building gasoline cars was definitely there. They missed the electric wave sure, but as with any innovations the more competent you are in the previous wave of technology the harder it is to switch to the new one. But it's a dif…

> The technical competence in building gasoline cars was definitely there I'm not sure about your statement here after the wet timing belt inside engine debacle for many European cars engines including Renault that's still existed until today. It's a total disregards of the laws on material physics and chemistry [1], [2]. [1] Wet Belt in Oil Engines: Who Approved This and Why Is It Still Being Made [video]: https://w…

The wet timing belt reduces fuel consumption by about 1% so you can thank efficiency requirements for that.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#276

Post by Toutouxc » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 4:54 PM UTC

veidr wrote: post #266

Toutouxc wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can not be ashamed talking about their car getting 10 MPG.

[flagged]

A car getting 10 MPG consumes, in just 60 miles of driving, the energy equivalent of a household's monthly electricity usage, and can travel less than 200 meters on the energy generated by four hours of running on a treadmill.

Please explain to me how thinking that this is absolutely atrocious speaks to my limited worldview?

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#277

Post by Vrondi » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 4:55 PM UTC

spacebanana7 wrote: post #223

mongol wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla is going down the drain, at least in Europe, unless shareholders evict Musk. Nothing iPhone-like with that brand anymore.

Out of curiosity, do you know anyone on the political right who feels that way? It's quite possible to win a market with 30-50% of people liking you. Any if right wing customers buy Teslas for political reasons rather than utility they could reduce quality and increase pricing do even better financially.

The fascinating thing is that the political right largely prefers ICE vehicles in the USA. This is a combination of factors, like more rural voters who need more range/work more blue collar jobs/haul firewood/etc. Combined with a personality type that is more cautious about change. And also, the insane prices for things like Teslas here. Perhaps Musk's close association with President Trump will gain him a small number of new rich fans on the political right, but most common Americans in most of the country aren't even considering a Tesla to begin with, and it's the majority of folks with lower incomes that put Trump back in office this time.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#278

Post by mminer237 » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 4:55 PM UTC

namdnay wrote: post #191

teruakohatu wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty much this. Honda was all but begged by the Japanese government to bail Nissan out. Remember that the Japanese government had a role in taking out Renault and preventing a French takeover of Nissan, their political hand was already overstretched. I know little/nothing about Japanese politics. How exactly does the Government of Japan apply pressure to a public company to merge with another failing public compa…

The last time the boss of Nissan didn’t do what they wanted, they put him in prison

Ghosn? He was charged for stealing millions of dollars from Nissan, but he fled the country before ever going to prison.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#279

Post by dismalaf » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 5:03 PM UTC

I mean, I kind of understand Nissan's position of not wanting to be a subsidy. And while Nissan is probably in a worse position than Honda, Honda has fallen from grace as well, they were/are a one trick pony and also in danger of complete irrelevance.

What I don't get is how Nissan exited so many segments it did well in... Look at off-road SUVs: Jeep is making a killing selling Wranglers, Ford can't keep Broncos in stock, Toyota is now selling 4Runners AND Land Cruisers in the US, where's the new Xterra?

Compact to midsize trucks are all the rage too, Nissan basically ignored that segment not updating the Frontier for what, 15 years? Then coming out with a new Frontier that is already 10 years behind on arrival...

They squandered their first mover advantage in EVs...

They literally gave up on everything that isn't a cheap shitbox, all they seem to sell is bland, cheap small SUVs and cars. Meanwhile a bunch of segments they used to care about are exploding.

Honda meanwhile doesn't really have any hits other than the Civic and maybe CR-V... Their SUVs are boring, their cars are boring, they have no off roader, never seen one of their EVs (according to their website it exists). Hyundai/Kia are doing everything Honda is doing but better. Honda has racing pedigree and probably could be doing something interesting but they just aren't.

An actual merger with a new name and some new energy could have revitalized them both and allowed them to escape the past if neither of them want to play to their historical strengths anyway... Honda making Nissan a subsidiary though is also old thinking, and just ain't it.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#280

Post by slantyyz » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 5:09 PM UTC

kwiens wrote: post #257

mauvehaus wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not personally convinced that minivans lend themselves to much differentiation. They all hold about seven people, and more dollars gets you more screens. It's a box on wheels that gets seven people from point a to point b. The screens help stupify the kids in the back to make the journey quieter for the adults in the front. Nobody is shopping by zero-sixty times, the maintenance intervals are all about the same,…

The Toyota Sienna is the only minivan with all-wheel drive, which matters in cold climates or for the more adventerous families. It's built on the same chassis as the Highlander.

Not to mention that the Sienna hybrid gets crazy good fuel economy for a mini van.