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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#271

Post by caspper69 »

dralley wrote: post #19
nicce wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not what the maintainer said. The maintainer said that for Rust code in the area he is currently maintaining. I think the main issue was, the he was not accepting second maintainer to take care the Rust part on the same area. About the Rust code itself; the primary issue was code duplication rather than preventing the use of Rust altogether. Since the suggested code is not merged, every driver needs to write…

>That is not what the maintainer said. The maintainer said that for Rust code in the area he is currently maintaining. I think the main issue was, the he was not accepting second maintainer to take care the Rust part on the same area. The Rust code is not in the area he was currently maintaining. Christoph didn't even look at the patches before objecting to them. Once it was pointed out that they were not in his area…

The issue is it creates a downstream dependency on his code, even if it is 100% separate and separately maintained.

Once the wrapper is written, any breaking changes he makes in the DMA subsystem will, by their very nature, percolate downstream to the Rust wrapper and then to any Rust code that relies on it.

So basically from that point forth, he will always have to consider the ramifications of his changes on another group of developers, and deal with any backlash those may cause.

Is he being unreasonable? I tend to lean on the side of "yes," but I can certainly empathize with his point of view (not necessarily his approach, however).

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#272

Post by msh »

pjmlp wrote: post #91
threatofrain wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps C is here to stay and that is the way Linux should live and naturally die. That's what's being proposed here by the guy who opposes multi-language projects.

Most UNIX systems that were not implemented in C, and thus lacked the symbiotic relationship, never survived in the market, sadly. There have been UNIX systems implemented, Pascal, Ada, Modula-2, Modula-3, as the most relevant ones. All gone. Also note that POSIX/UNIX certification requires a C compiler presence.

OSX would like to disagree with you.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#273

Post by enragedcacti »

lelanthran wrote: post #101
markus_zhang wrote: post #81

I have a question. Instead of fighting an uphill war in the Linux kernel community, why don't Rush developers just make a new kernel or fork their own? Sure it's going to take years, but at least they don't have to suffer the mental outrages from time to time and can do whatever they want? I mean I'd do it if that's what I want. P.S I don't have skin and skill for the kernel game. I'm just a curious bystander.

> I have a question. Instead of fighting an uphill war in the Linux kernel community, why don't Rush developers just make a new kernel or fork their own? Because their primary goal is to widen the community and reach of Rust, with "preventing memory error class bugs in the kernel" a secondary objective. After all, the Rust additions, if properly designed, can be maintained in an out-of-tree fork that tracks the main…

> After all, the Rust additions, if properly designed, can be maintained in an out-of-tree fork that tracks the main Linux repo. If they did that, there'd be no one to block their patches but themselves, and yet they don't do that.

Mainlining whenever possible is highly incentivized by technical and organizational aspects of linux[1], nothing about rust changes that. Obviously R4L introduces complexity and tradeoffs but I don't see why a rust kernel dev whose only goal was preventing bugs would do anything differently in this regard. Linux is a consensus project and opting out of the process of building consensus would mean not actually preventing any bugs.

[1] https://docs.kernel.org/process/1.Intro.html#the-importance-...

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#274

Post by winocm »

starspangled wrote: post #62
gary_0 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Positive, yes, but can you point to where he says R4L is here to stay and an integral part of the kernel? He needs to commit, or drama like this will continue to boil over. He also seems content to let the C-only old guard give the R4L guys a hard time. If you only enforce the rules on one side of a conflict, it makes it pretty clear which side you agree with.

Nothing in Linux is "here to stay", it always has to demonstrate its worth, and what it's worth is depends enirely on the technology and its developers, not Linus.

DEC Alpha support is somehow still in the mainline Linux kernel...

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#275

Post by finnthehuman »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #257
mplewis9z wrote: post #10

Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2…

Besides the current drama, I'm glad someone of his stature agrees with and can call out the horrible processes and tooling involved in the kernel. Using email and a pile of hacks to mess around with patches just sounds nuts and makes it so much harder to understand or contribute. I don't think decentralized necessitates such a terrible workflow - you can run a local website with a distributed DB, distributed git forg…

I always thought it was a pretty blatant "vibe check" to filter out people who are so uncomfortable with software that they can't customize their environment to create an email workflow that works for them.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#276

Post by snvzz »

d3Xt3r wrote: post #203
PedroBatista wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my overall point of view too. Regardless of infinite technical discussions about one or another, if Alice and Bob can't live together than just don't get married. Why spend all this energy on conflict and drama to no end? If one language/technology/group is so much better then just fork the thing and follow their own path. I'm actually not defending the C guys, I just want to leave them alone and let "Nature"…

I concur. Personally, I'd love to see all the Linux Rust effort being redirected at Redox OS. If the Asahi team focused their efforts on Redox, with all the genius talent they they have, we could see an actually practical, usable implementation of Redox on real hardware; a potential daily-driver which would catapult the development of whole ecosystem - and that can only be a good thing.

Redox has stayed drama free so far.

I am sure most people involved with the Linux rust effort are also not problematic; these would be very welcome there.

OTOH, please don't let Redox be taken over by problematic people.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#277

Post by jabwd »

lII1lIlI11ll wrote: post #207
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

> The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. Efficiently collaborating on large distributed open source projects like Linux is as much social act…

> To me it looks like that for Linux big part of R4L experiment is to specifically understand whether Rust people can convince key stakeholders that R4L is good idea and get their buy-in and that is why he doesn't attempt to force it.

This is the entire point. This has been DONE. First its "lets see if you can build a good driver", now its "ew rust". The maintainer of the DMA subsystem is showing how they're actively trying to make sure Rust doesn't make it in. .

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#279

Post by sevg »

artyom wrote: post #238
sevg wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be implying that he had nothing to apologise for, and that abusive behavior is an acceptable part of strong leadership. It’s sad that this even needs to be called out.

Except you have no authority to call that out, and we're not forced by law to agree with you. In my opinion Linus was never abusive or disrespectful - just blunt and direct. Unfortunately, there seems to exist people (like me) that would prefer such individuals instead of nice empty words just in case someone gets offended.

[flagged]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#280

Post by mjw1007 »

> Apple/ARM platform development will continue downstream. If I feel like sending some patches upstream in the future myself for whatever subtree I may, or I may not.

I suppose it's possible that that could turn out well.

The situation with Apple hardware feels a bit like the early days of Linux (including the fast pace of development). There was a time when if you wanted broad hardware support it was better to run an Alan Cox kernel than a Linus kernel. And the whole point of git was to have a system that didn't require one central blessed tree.

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