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Google kills diversity hiring targets

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Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not how DEI programs operated at places I’ve worked. They were more about expanding candidate searches to look for high quality people at other places than we’d been looking, reducing alcohol at company events etc

This is a minor detail but reducing or removing alcohol all together (my company) from social events for inclusion reasons is excluding people who like consuming alcohol at social events. We somehow pivoted to embracing restrictions in order to accommodate small groups of people, instead of offering alternatives (e.g. vegan options). This will always irritate other groups of people and is not a sustainable way to imp…

> reducing or removing alcohol all together (my company) from social events for inclusion reasons is excluding people who like consuming alcohol at social events

Reducing or removing alcohol at social events is not done for "inclusion reasons" but for straightforward legal liability reasons: a drunk employee often has poor impulse control and may do or say shitty things that they wouldn't if they were sober, and with some probability this results in lawsuits against the company. No drunk people at social events -> fewer lawsuits.

Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets

#272
post #210

Isn't "communism = bad" part of the American culture? Why are all of these private companies immediately kissing the govts ass?

What on earth does communism have to do with it?

I could be wrong, but on earth, communists tend to control their companies with an iron grip.

Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine that someone decides recruiting needs a budget cut and shrinks the travel budget a bit. Managers shift to local career fairs instead. No one notices the complete lack of bay area HBCUs and a couple years down the road the pipeline is filled with people from Stanford with internships and internal recommendations competing against people from HBCUs that don't have either of them. One of these populations will l…

Google should be free to do that if they want. Companies shouldn't be expected to solve every problem in society, and certainly not social issues.

I'm not describing some hypothetical here. This was the main way employment discrimination worked after the passage of the EEOA.

Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be reasoning from the standpoint that anti-black racism is no longer a factor today. This is not the case. Once you understand this, it is easy to see that actual, first-order racism is what destroys the dream of a colorblind society.

I understand that anti-black racism is still a factor today. I really fail to see how doubling in on the importance and reality of race and skin color in particular (as opposed to culture) everywhere is going to make that problem go away.

Exposure to other races through integration increases understanding and reduces the tendency towards prejudice.

Makes sense?

Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth is it comes down to the exact details of the policy whether it's legal. There's tonnes of things you can do to increase diversity in legal ways. For example, Google recruits at college campuses, they must have selection criteria for which campuses they visit, no matter what that policy is it's de facto a diversity strategy. As for whether it's fair. It seems pretty dependent on your view of the world. If yo…

Other countries often have a clearer separation of responsibilities between government and business. Governments are responsible for addressing social inequity, while companies simply hire whoever best meets their needs (within the constraints of antidiscrimination laws). In America these responsibilities seem to have become blurred, resulting in an XY problem whereby people debate which hiring policies are best at a…

In many European countries there is an expectation that employers behave in socially responsible ways. In many cases this is also codified into law.

Employers also benefit from government support (e.g. the government sponsors education that ultimately provides the workforce for the employers).

Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when you go to a car repair shop, would it shock you to see 99% males working there?

I was expecting the US office to be more diverse than my UK office, given the large black population in the US, but that wasn't the case which surprised me.

Depends on where you are in the US. My city is very low black population compared to other large cities.

Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets

#277
post #258

This was brewing from last year. From their "Mission First" post on Apr 18, 2024 https://blog.google/inside-google/company-announcements/buil... > “ultimately we are a workplace and our policies and expectations are clear: this is a business, and not a place to act in a way that disrupts coworkers or makes them feel unsafe, to attempt to use the company as a personal platform, or to fight over disruptive issues or de…

This certainly has been brewing under the surface for quite some time now, not just in business, but in most of society. What's changed is that now the dominoes have started to fall, people are finally comfortable expressing it in clear terms.

Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets

#278
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a company make an "effort" to interview a diverse set of candidates? There's an applicant queue not under their control, and a filtering phase at every step of the interview process. What you're suggesting is that companies favor candidates who have a different appearance or background than existing employees, which is the definition of bias and discrimination. This is based on ignorant beliefs that people w…

> There's an applicant queue not under their control Not 100%, sure, but that's far different from 0%. Which job fairs do your company reps attend? Is there a built-in bias causing you to miss out on good candidates? Can employees recommend a friend as a potential recruit? What effect does that have on promoting favoritism over a better candidate? > What you're suggesting is that companies favor candidates who have a…

> Which job fairs do your company reps attend?

Are job fairs still a thing? IME most recruitment happens online these days, with the vast majority of candidates coming in via LinkedIn and other job boards.

> Can employees recommend a friend as a potential recruit? What effect does that have on promoting favoritism over a better candidate?

Why is that a bad thing? Personal recommendations from someone you trust is a valid factor in making a hiring decision. This doesn't necessarily mean hiring someone who is inexperienced and not a good fit for the role over a better candidate just because they were recommended, but all else being equal, a recommendation is a strong signal to consider.

Although, truthfully, why is favoritism wrong? If a company prefers hiring someone based on a recommendation, they might have issues with their performance, but maybe that person makes the team happier and more productive. Ultimately, it's their decision to make and live with.

> If the core team is all from Local Church, and their friend network is all from Local Church, then should they favor that network to hire someone else from Local Church, or should other candidates be judged with equal weight?

I think we can agree that candidates should be judged equally based primarily on their ability to fulfill the role requirements. My problem with DEI initiatives is that they emphasize superficial traits like religion, race, gender, ethnicity, etc., which are things we've fought hard to _not_ pay attention to in a professional setting. The effect of this is that it simply reverses the direction of the discrimination, but it doesn't get rid of it.

> Bearing the latter in mind is DEI.

> Requiring new candidates to not be fro Local Church is also discrimination on the basis of religion, and is equally prohibited. It is not DEI.

You can define what DEI is supposed to mean all you want, but the reality is that companies use it as an excuse for discrimination[1]. This is not surprising, as it's a slippery slope from "suppressing our biases" to "reversing our biases".

I said "primarily" above because there is inevitably a human component in deciding whether a person or team would want to work with someone, which can be interpreted as a bias. This is often referred to with vague terms such as "culture fit", or the rebranded "cultural contribution", "values fit", etc.[2]

The thing is that humans are innately tribal. We tend to favor like-minded individuals familiar to our own background and life experience. Even if you educate people to not be biased against/for a specific set of traits, we will still be biased against some others. Humans in general favor attractive, charismatic, confident and outgoing people. Should we fight to remove those biases as well?

In broader terms, what is exactly the end goal of DEI programs? That companies are 100% heterogeneous across all possible criteria that can identify a person? This is insane and unrealistic. It completely ignores not only our inherent biases, but the fact that some of our traits influence our career decisions and make us better suited for specific roles. For example, nurses are overwhelmingly female, while mechanics and electricians are overwhelmingly male[3]. Is this the result of discrimination in these industries, or simply a side-effect of what makes us different? Would these industries be any better if we forced them to discriminate against the majority of their work force?

[1]: https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/09/ibm_red_hat_discrimin...

[2]: https://buffer.com/resources/culture-fit/

[3]: https://careersmart.org.uk/occupations/equality/which-jobs-d...

Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets

#279
post #251
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a company make an "effort" to interview a diverse set of candidates? There's an applicant queue not under their control, and a filtering phase at every step of the interview process. What you're suggesting is that companies favor candidates who have a different appearance or background than existing employees, which is the definition of bias and discrimination. This is based on ignorant beliefs that people w…

[flagged]

What's amazing is how quickly Godwin's law surfaces in this type of conversations.

I can be in favor of equal opportunity for everyone, yet against DEI programs. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a Nazi.

Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's telling that culture will instantly lump anyone successful into the "white" category. I feel like this diversity drive was broken from the start

> It's telling that culture will instantly lump anyone successful into the "white" category. They also do the inverse, insisting that obviously white Arabs and Persians can't be white because they don't live in successful countries. (On the other hand, Russians can be white despite not living in a successful country. Who knows. In this case, it looks like "white" actually means "Christian", except for Middle Eastern…

>Russians can be white despite not living in a successful country

Which is especially perverse when one considers how ethnically heterogeneous Russia is as a result of the USSR's policy of integrating ethnic Russians into minority areas and shipping some number of those minorities back to Russia (basically so they don't incite discontent in their native lands).

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