Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers • Hacker News Board

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#271

Post by enragedcacti » Tue, Jan 14, 2025, 5:16 PM UTC

potato3732842 wrote: post #99

itishappy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With the 4-way stop there is never a time when all traffic is stopped and the drivers are always paying attention to what other drivers are doing. With the walk signal there is a brief moment in time when the drivers are doing nothing but waiting for you and are all stopped so you as a pedestrian can account for them in preparation just before you get your signal and make your move. That's... not true? With light t…

>That's... not true? With light traffic a 4 way stop should have no cars at all at it most of the time, leaving pedestrians with the right of way, whereas with a traffic light there will always be a road with priority until a pedestrian hits the button. Requiring cars to pay attention to the condition of the intersection is the explicit design goal. >This was laid out very clearly in the article we just read. This is…

are you so engrossed in the driver's POV that you can't imagine an intersection without cars in it?

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#272

Post by Spivak » Tue, Jan 14, 2025, 5:16 PM UTC

cge wrote: post #88

jagged-chisel wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OT, but it fired me up a bit - people that enter the intersection on green or orange awaiting a break to turn left. And then don’t clear the intersection on red. Now they’re in everyone’s way. How do you get them to understand they’ve already “run the light” and just need to move?

As far as I know, that is both legal and standard practice in California, and at many intersections with traffic and no protected turn, is in practice the only possible way to turn left: there will simply never be a break in traffic, from the moment the light turns green until it turns red, and so without entering the intersection and then turning on red, it is simply not possible to turn left at all.

They even teach you to do this in driver's ed. I know HN skews "rules are rigid" but this one should be known by everyone.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#273

Post by OJFord » Tue, Jan 14, 2025, 5:18 PM UTC

memsom wrote: post #229

s1artibartfast wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have never had a driver wait?

In the UK, it is very rare for a pedestrian crossing that is controlled by a button press to not completely stop traffic. The first time I was in North America as an adult, I realised that when on a crosswalk drivers will come sailing at you and will cross behind you as you cross over. That is illegal here. The drivers need to wait for the pedestrians to cross, even on "Zebra" crossings (which are the ones with no bu…

> The trade off is that the pedestrian has pretty much no right of way anywhere but a crossing, and cars will drive at you (or at least not stop for you) if you try to cross somewhere that is not a crossing.

That's not true, or at least it's bad/illegal driving if they do so, a pedestrian who is 'established in the road' as the right of way anywhere.

As you said:

> Though "Jaywalking" is not a thing and you can actually cross where ever you like.

Otherwise it would be a contradiction wouldn't it? If the pedestrians allowed to be there, the motorist obviously isn't allowed to run them over, ... I suppose you could say the pedestrian can continue crossing but only after first giving way to the motorist? There'd be more time with pedestrians in the road though.

Not that I recommend using that fact to cross when you don't have time, because you will anger motorists. Or they could not see you/be paying attention. They'd be wrong, but it's just not worth it, obviously.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#274

Post by gs17 » Tue, Jan 14, 2025, 5:18 PM UTC

cogman10 wrote: post #238

Could someone explain why we always put pedestrian crossings at intersections? I've always felt like that is the most unsafe place for a crossing. In my city, there are a few pedestrian crossings with lights recessed from intersections. The lights turn on only when someone bumps the crossing button (which isn't super common) and only 2 ways of traffic need to stop/watch out.

My city has those too, and drivers ignore them. Unless you mean one with a proper traffic signal that turns red, ours just turn on yellow flashing lights.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#275

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 14, 2025, 5:18 PM UTC

soperj wrote: post #24

mungoman2 wrote: post #8

This is an annoying change, but the cars in the video weren't actually running any red lights. Doesn't help the case to exaggerate.

It's a 34 second video. One enters the intersection after the light has turned red (pause the video, you can see it). The other is half way through the intersection before the light turns red, definitely speeds up to make the light, which is what they're talking about.

[deleted]

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#276

Post by cogman10 » Tue, Jan 14, 2025, 5:18 PM UTC

smileysteve wrote: post #58

CuriousCosmic wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roundabouts aren't perfect but they greatly reduce the speed of traffic at the crossing point (while increasing the overall throughput of the intersection). Without looking up statistics (and I'd love to be proven wrong here), I'd be willing to guess that roundabouts may result in some marginal increase in minor accidents but massively reduces fatalities or accidents that leave the pedestrian in the ICU. Additionally…

For pedestrians, roundabouts also eliminate left turn lanes, saving ~9' of stroad width to cross and mean only looking one, predictable, direction at a time.

At high traffic times, they can make a pedestrian wait longer. Not so fun when it's cold out.

But otherwise somewhat easier to navigate.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#277

Post by ImPostingOnHN » Tue, Jan 14, 2025, 5:19 PM UTC

NegativeLatency wrote: post #193

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not everyone can drive Not everyone can afford to live in an area of the city where they don't have to drive places, either.

Which is exactly why we should build and design communities to have good transit. When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

Heck yeah, I'm all for building and designing communities to have good transit. I love it when I can get where I want to go without driving. Let's do it, teammate!

In the meantime, until that's done and everybody lives where they can easily take public transit from their home to where they want to go, we'll continue to be in the situation I described, and will have to compromise with our fellow humans who have different locomotion options and choices.

All people are equal, regardless of transportation, so this intersection seems like a fair compromise which doesn't preference one person over another.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#278

Post by cogman10 » Tue, Jan 14, 2025, 5:20 PM UTC

inetknght wrote: post #46

CuriousCosmic wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roundabouts aren't perfect but they greatly reduce the speed of traffic at the crossing point (while increasing the overall throughput of the intersection). Without looking up statistics (and I'd love to be proven wrong here), I'd be willing to guess that roundabouts may result in some marginal increase in minor accidents but massively reduces fatalities or accidents that leave the pedestrian in the ICU. Additionally…

1-lane roundabouts are OK More than 1-lane and they're a disaster waiting to happen

Nah, 2 lanes are pretty manageable. Even for a pedestrian. You still only have traffic coming from one direction which makes it easy to see when you can cross.

From a car perspective, it's just a matter of getting in the right lane for the exit you want.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#279

Post by gs17 » Tue, Jan 14, 2025, 5:20 PM UTC

1970-01-01 wrote: post #227

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #144

Saving seconds for cars is important. It adds up across all the intersections they cross, and makes travel time shorter. These safetyism arguments are tired because they never honestly consider the tradeoffs, particularly that cars have lots of benefits.

This is my take in a nutshell. Instead of trying to force pedestrians and bikers to share with cars, we could go one level better and fully remove pedestrians and bikers from these roads until a city fund for building them a proper bike-only lane has fully matured. The only reason we force them to share public roads is because it seems logical, but the physics and logistics just doesn't work well.

> and fully remove pedestrians and bikers from these roads until a city fund for building them a proper bike-only lane has fully matured.

And what do the pedestrians get?

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#280

Post by toast0 » Tue, Jan 14, 2025, 5:22 PM UTC

horsawlarway wrote: post #219

nirvdrum wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except the article doesn’t claim what the drivers are doing is illegal. The article states “… and I captured two drivers ripping through red lights in that short span.” I suppose “ripping through” can be left up to interpretation. However, in the video the author says “that person just ran a stop… a red light right in the middle of me filming.” Then the other he says: “I bet this guy runs the light. Yup, see, this…

I don't know if California has a different law, but at least in my state it is very much illegal to accelerate into a yellow light. Enforcement is basically non-existent, but it's absolutely "running the light" and "breaking the law" to accelerate into yellow lights.

California law does not address accelerating on a yellow. The driver's handbook (which is not the law) says

> A yellow traffic signal light means CAUTION. The light is about to turn red. When you see a yellow traffic signal light, stop, if you can do so safely. If you cannot stop safely, cautiously cross the intersection.

The bright line rule is not to enter the intersection on a red light, defined as crossing the stop line if present, crossing the first line of a pedestrian crossing if present, or actually entering the intersection if there are no lines.