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Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

itvision.altervista.org

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Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The content is total garbage, which is where the problem ultimately lies.

The garbage is a result of me using Linux for almost 30 years and also being an active Linux maintainer. I can vouch for every word in the article except maybe the last section but this discussion alone speaks for itself, so even that part is not totally wrong. Here in this discussion we've got all the falsehoods that I've heard a billion times already: * It works for me it must work for everyone else (never mind oth…

> The garbage is a result of me using Linux

I think we're all in agreement with this part.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#272
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working for a vendor that ships Linux code, we find regressions all the time. Because we actually test things. We do try to be good citizens, and Linux is the right answer, but it isn't a false assertion on the part of the author at all. In a previous job, 20 years ago, we found that the Linux USB stack was so bad that it was full of deadlocks and unprotected shared memory on 2.6. Just atrocious. And subsequent relea…

OpenSolaris still lives in illumos: https://illumos.org/

I am sure what he means that is we lost a lot when it become unprofitable for companies to offer solid UNIX offerings that were supported in the way he would like. Other than the fact that it evolves glacially, Illumos is in an even worse position than Linux when it comes to offering support.

If we are being honest though, in the terms that this article is arguing, "Linux" as an ecosystem is the wrong label. When it comes to stability and support, we need to think of each Linux distro as an Operating System. In that sense, things like RHEL are certainly well supported--including on the desktop. If your app targets RHEL, you pretty much have none of the problems discussed in this article. You still have a smaller universe of applications than Windows of course which is to be expected.

So, the problem boils down to "nobody is making sufficient money off desktop Linux to steward a desktop Linux distro". That is not careless devs or bad design decisions though--no matter how chicken-and-egg you try to paint it. It is simply the network effect.

Decent desktop operating systems exist and they already have large application universes and large, monetizable user bases. They appeared into a vacuum that lacked such operating systems but that vacuum no longer exists. That makes it almost impossible to economically introduce a new desktop platform. Certainly none of the commercial attempts have succeeded in the last few decades. In fact, the system that has been the MOST successful is Linux. By that metric, saying that Linux is doing it all wrong does not ring very true.

Valve is doing a lot to make Linux gaming a reality because, when it comes to the network effect, it is largely true that Steam ( not just Windows ) is the true platform. So, if you can bring Steam to Linux, you can move the users there too. It is still early days for that but it appears to be working.

On the mobile side, the network effect is very much alive as well. This is why Windows, using of course all of Microsoft's tricks, strengths, and knowledge, completely failed while the Linux kernel ( in the form of Android ) has totally dominated. And that is not for any of the reasons cited in the article. Do you think an Android app from 2008 will run on Android today unmodified? An iOS app from 2008 on iOS today? I don't think so.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#273
post #223

Here's how you have a good experience: Use one of the following: - Fedora - Fedora Silverblue - Ubuntu - openSuse Aeon or Micro Leap Next, don't modify anything. Use the DE it comes with, never open the terminal, treat it like it's MacOS or Windows and you're your grandma. Then you'll have a good, solid desktop. The problem people have is using hobbyist distros like Mint, some flavour of Arch that's just a buggier Ar…

Now - I'm not super deep in Linux. I get to tinkering with it every few years since College. Early on, you had a lot of weird config stuff and cryptic error messages you had to figure out to get it up and running normally. Then it was OK until something weird happened. The chances of something weird happening go wayyy up if you don't heed your advice: > Next, don't modify anything. Use the DE it comes with, never ope…

> But even so - occasionally, weird stuff will happen. Just like it happens on any OS over time, the farther you get from a clean install.

Immutable distros solve this. Your base OS is basically always in the state the developers intend (as long as you don't mess with it). Applications are all containerized and if you do dev stuff, that's also in containers.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drawio, Session, and SimpleX are three that use AppImage, just off the top of my head. > because they come with all the dependencies starting with glibc Good, because my system doesn't have glibc, by choice. > Yeah, that will totally work It's already working. > And they weigh in hundreds of megabytes My home connection is 2-gigabit symmetrical and the internal NVMe in my laptop is 4TB. So cry more poorfag.

I'll just leave this here, please argue with it: https://ludocode.com/blog/flatpak-is-not-the-future

The lack of deduplication, or more like avoiding duplication, of what are basically files in some of these implementations is a problem.

But it's not a problem for me. It's also not a problem for most people. And it's not at all a problem next to the dumpster fire of closed source OS ; so ultimately there is no real problem.

Yet, all of that is moot, because someone already solved the problem. But I'll wait until they publish their work to talk about it.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#275
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got halfway through it before realizing that it’s just a clickbait article.

Yes, look up the author's name. Look at their contributions to the Linux kernel, GCC, KDE, Wine, and many other projects. A total clickbait for sure.

I don't think that will convince many people. Appealing to authority is one third of rhetoric, Aristotle would say that you need emotion or logic to convince me completely.

Speaking for myself, I'm mostly surprised that someone with such an intimate knowledge of Linux has ignored it's developments to this extent. This entire thread is mostly at the consensus that you have tortured many of the talking points in this article beyond taking seriously.

Many in this thread have also identified that MacOS and Windows are deficient in several of the criteria you listed. So what even is a desktop, really? An ideal, or a thing people use?

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#276
post #115
post #81

> Regressions are introduced all the time because Linux developers spend very little to no time checking that their code changes don't cause regressions or breakages outside of the problems they're trying to fix or features they're implementing. Wow. Such sweeping generalizations make me not want to pay attention to anything this article has to say. But let's entertain the possibility that parts of that statement are…

> It's practically impossible for "Linux developers"—whatever that means—to ensure that a change they make doesn't break something downstream. Unlike proprietary operating systems... That's exactly the point, though. Linux will "never be ready for the desktop" because of the problems that this causes. Developers of software for Linux, not to mention kernel developers themselves, do not have the kind of funding that M…

The most one can say is all versions of Linux cannot ever be a successful desktop OS.

However, it’s very possible for a company to build an Apple like company by creating their own Linux distro that is well tested and guaranteed to run at least as well on their hardware as Apple’s software does on Apple’s hardware.

This is the System76 approach.

Alternatively, you could create a distro that is restricted and sell it to hardware vendors who then have the responsibility to test your distro against their hardware. This is the MS approach. There’s no reason such an approach would necessarily have any more issues than MS does.

In fact, because of the open source nature of Linux development, it’s likely that the Linux versions should do better than their proprietary counterparts, because downstream companies, teams and users can test before the product is released and point out problems before the product has even hit alpha. Heck, they can even share patches.

The real problem with Linux on the desktop is that it doesn’t have enough market power to make the kind of testing MS and Apple and their downstream clients do financially worth it.

There is no reason why the server space shouldn’t have the same issues. But the Linux server space has enough money that downstream vendors clients and users are able to invest money in testing, which has meant the advantages of open source have pretty much wiped out all the competitors in the space.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#277
post #146

I'm a big linux fan. Use it every day. I even use linux on the desktop to develop Windows software that isn't even distributed on linux. But am I really that alone in recognizing a lot of truth in this article? It's sad to see so much hostility within some of the other comments, even here on HN, quickly coming to linux's defence rather than having at lest some degree of reflection and acceptance towards what are almo…

There’s truth in broad strokes (e.g., the lack of a stable ABI is a genuine problem) that I wish people would acknowledge. I think your attitude is a healthy one! However, I don’t think this article is written very charitably. It seems unfair to Linux developers to suggest that they spend “very little to no time” testing their changes for regressions, for example. And while AppImage, snaps, and flatpacks are imperfec…

Saying that Flatpak is "virtual lightweight machines" is just plain wrong.

There is no hardware emulation in a Flatpak. There are no "machines" virtual or otherwise other than the computer and host kernel that you are running as an operating system on it. What Flatpaks provide are the support libraries ( the specific versions of those libraries ) that an application requires to run. That is exactly the strategy that Windows uses as well. Windows applications, usually distributed as binaries from very early in the history of the OS, have learned to bundle most of those libraries themselves. For the low level stuff like C and C++ standard libraries, Windows bundles multiple generations of them that are taking up space ( and providing attack surface ) whether you are using them or not. The biggest difference with Flatpaks is that these libraries are not installed until you install and app that needs them. This is why the author complains that Flatpaks "waste space". Windows takes up tens of gigabytes of storage for a basic install but then does not require as much to be installed later to support legacy apps. Somehow the author thinks this is better.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#278
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, despite millions of players, it's hard to call CS2 an AAA title because it's based on Direct3D 11 (which is now more than a decade old) and lacks modern lighting techniques like ray tracing. Some of the quotes from the OP's page border on parody. So, CS2 doesn't count as a AAA title because it's based on DX11 and doesn't have realtime ray tracing. But apparently this same person is oblivious to the fact that…

CS2 is at most AA and mostly just facilitates skin gambling. The way that CS2 was kinda clumsily dropped, replacing a game with another game in kind of an unpolished state, also doesn't suggest that it could even be "AAA". It's low key a public playtest still. Early access. But that's besides that point.

Can't argue with that. I'm still not super worried for Valve though; between Alyx, Deadlock, the Deck, and Proton, it's pretty clear that CS2 is less of a new norm and more of an outlier too popular to be announced dead and buried yet. Counter Strike has always felt like the drunk uncle of Valve's IP, it would be nice to see him clean up for once but I'm also not upset having him at a holiday party or out at the bar with friends.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#279
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most computer users do not use photoshop. For those that do, there are options. One is to use Krita. Another would be to use Wine to run the Windows version of Photoshop: https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=applicatio... It works for a number of versions, although not all of them. It is a shame that Adobe does not port Photoshop to Linux. It used to run on IRIX: http://nekofiles.irixnet.org/Documents/ph…

So I am friends with a bunch of photographers. Some are proponents of open source. Others don’t care. But universally they would rather have a thing that just works and feels right than mess with Wine. You can do almost anything. When your paycheck depends on your software working your patience is likely to be shorter. I say this as a person who is a huge fan of Linux/Unix on the desktop. I wish I still was able to r…

They would probably be better served by MacOS.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#280

These are a bunch of reasons why the top 1% of the most technical users in the world might not use Linux on their desktop. For everyone else, the reason they don't use Linux on their desktop is because it didn't come installed on it. If somebody does to desktops like what Google did for smartphones, then Linux will finally have its moment.

> If somebody does to desktops like what Google did for smartphones, then Linux will finally have its moment.

That's already happened, and Google did it. They are called Chromebooks. They are Linux underneath, use the GNU userspace stack and Wayland for GUI. They have a button that installs Debian, and GUI packages you "apt install" appear in the Chrome app launch folder.

Apparently ChromeOS is being swallowed by Android, which I suspect isn't a big move. Crosini, the LXC thingy that hosts Debian on ChromeOS, has already been ported. That means Android will be powering laptops. Does that make it a Desktop OS? If so, that does the we can count Android's 45% market share of all personal computing devices towards a Desktop OS? And if we do that, does that mean Linux has finally won the desktop wars? By any definition it's already won the personal computing devices wars.

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