Should more of us be moving to live near friends? • Hacker News Board

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#271

Post by vel0city » Sat, Dec 28, 2024, 2:56 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #262

vel0city wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NCHS codes, RUCC codes, census designated places, ZIP code designations, take your pick. All of those are generally OK by me. Something other than just "small towns and villages exist", as both easily get classified as urban or suburban. I've got loads of data backing up my assertion tons people think they live in a rural area don't live in a statistically classified rural area. People overly misuse the term rural an…

> Something other than just "small towns and villages exist", as both easily get classified as urban or suburban. Even if you're being pedantic (which, as noted, is pointless and silly), small towns aren't necessarily urban or suburban. For the census, 2000 housing units or a population of 5000 are required to count, and my town is the only one that made it onto the census list within an hour of me. 20+ small towns,…

So instead of all this complaining of me being a pedant you could have replied to this question with just a "yes" and far fewer ink would have been spilled. Who was really being pointless and silly in this exchange?

> Yeah but on the census is your area rural or urban?

> And, again, as noted, I think it's silly to insist on a term of art in colloquial usage

I disagree. If you ever call the furry creature in my home an elephant I'll correct your usage regardless of if you somehow feel it's the proper colloquial usage. Using the term incorrectly is using the term incorrectly. If we just make up whatever "rural" means to you personally then it'll be hard to actually use real statistics to understand our populations and cities.

If we're just going to go by vibes for our definition of rural, tons of places can be rural. I live a short walk from a fishing hole, there's a big wooded area near me, loads of big pickups driving around, people in cowboy boots and cowboy hats everywhere, I drive past farms every day, and I'm constantly next to a large horse stable. I guess I'm in a rural area! If I get a few friends to agree and use the term I guess it's right. What's that? It's a city of a population of 120k and a density of >4,000/sq mi and is deep in one of the largest US metros? Hmm, doesn't sound very rural, but it's vibing right, so must be.

It's absurd 30% of people who live in suburbs think they live in a rural area, and it does affect their lives.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#272

Post by dukeyukey » Sat, Dec 28, 2024, 2:57 PM UTC

iamricks wrote: post #159

dlisboa wrote: post #71

Coming from a Latin American the idea of re-starting your life across the country for college and then again for work (multiple times sometimes) while away from family and friends is very foreign. A lot of the conversation around modern American youth feeling isolated, lacking socialization and not building strong relationships seems that stem from this drive. Another thing that’s really weird and related is another…

I am Cuban and from Miami. The culture here is very similar where people will sacrifice everything in order to stay living close to family and "home". Here it stems a lot from the financial anxiety passed down from our parents and a culture where you relied a lot on your entire family. I think it really holds a lot of people back.

If you're Cuban and living in Miami, you are literally not near your "home", and probably not near your family? Or rather, physically close but still a plane ride and a diplomatic cold zone away.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#273

Post by afpx » Sat, Dec 28, 2024, 3:01 PM UTC

dsign wrote: post #230

grumpy-de-sre wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Anglo cultures kids aren't usually moving away from home until they are at least ~18 years old. This is not a factor in teenagers feeling isolated. Suburbia and the decline of third places probably play a far greater role in this demographic. It's a common trope on here to lament on how the Anglo cultures don't value family ties strongly enough. I'd argue not overly valuing family ties has been a big competitive a…

> What really needs to happen is we need to figure out ways of facilitating friend formation/maintenance in this brave new world of the internet and atheism. We are going to need some new social technologies to really combat this. I wonder how in your opinion atheism enters in the picture? My first guess (of your reference) is that certain religions frighten people into remaining in a marriage they would otherwise no…

I think the point is that secularism doesn't give you 'instant friends' like religion does. Secularism doesn't have shared culture or common experience to bind people.

For example, there's a 0.5 mile street in the town I grew up in that has 13 churches. This was an area settled by people from around the world, and the churches enabled them to have an immediate extended family when they showed up.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#274

Post by lolinder » Sat, Dec 28, 2024, 3:11 PM UTC

vel0city wrote: post #271

lolinder wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something other than just "small towns and villages exist", as both easily get classified as urban or suburban. Even if you're being pedantic (which, as noted, is pointless and silly), small towns aren't necessarily urban or suburban. For the census, 2000 housing units or a population of 5000 are required to count, and my town is the only one that made it onto the census list within an hour of me. 20+ small towns,…

So instead of all this complaining of me being a pedant you could have replied to this question with just a "yes" and far fewer ink would have been spilled. Who was really being pointless and silly in this exchange? > Yeah but on the census is your area rural or urban? > And, again, as noted, I think it's silly to insist on a term of art in colloquial usage I disagree. If you ever call the furry creature in my home a…

> So instead of all this complaining of me being a pedant you could have replied to this question with just a "yes" and far fewer ink would have been spilled.

While we're being pedantic, no ink was spilled on this conversation. Let's not invent a definition of ink that includes pixels on a screen.

The pedantry is the problem. That you were wrong even in your pedantry is entirely unsurprising because people who are being pedantic almost invariably are—people who actually are experts on a topic generally recognize it to be complicated enough that it's not worth trying to be perfectly precise in casual speech.

So in my first comment I didn't feel the need to waste time address the merits of your claims—that would only validate the invalid approach to discourse—but when you doubled down (twice!) I decided to humor you and sure enough, you were wrong.

> If we just make up whatever "rural" means to you personally then it'll be hard to actually use real statistics to understand our populations and cities.

Agreed. So let's not invent a definition of rural that says that small towns and villages "easily get classified as urban or suburban" and then try to use that as a hammer to tell people they're wrong about what type of environment they live in. :)

Edit: you added a whole paragraph after I replied, but it doesn't change anything. The environment you describe would not be called a small town or a village by anyone, even those who apparently misuse the word "rural" in conversation with you.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#275

Post by Wytwwww » Sat, Dec 28, 2024, 3:16 PM UTC

DragonStrength wrote: post #254

Wytwwww wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistically the number of Latin American migrants that move to the US yearly is tiny compared to the internal migration and especially to the number of people in Latin America who didn't go anywhere, though. The fact the it's not 100% who don't move doesn't really disprove anything.

It seems you haven’t read the context here where Americans are being framed as lacking community values because some small percentage migrate internally for better economic opportunities. The people here who see Americans who have moved to big cities form smaller places are seeing the exception, not the rule, as was pointed out elsewhere with statistics. You’re proving my point exactly: those characterizations, espec…

> Both are based on anecdotes and vibes, not reality. To me, it's all narcissism of minor differences

I think most are thinking about a higher proportion of adults living at the same household as their parents in some countries when they say that. However in recent year the proportion in the US got a lot closer to Latin American countries. Then again it probably significantly varies by race, ethnic background etc. which doesn't invalidate the anecdotal evidence people might have.

> cultures with such a broad brush weird, especially

US is very heterogeneous but it works reasonably well in many other places besides a handful of outliers.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#276

Post by nox101 » Sat, Dec 28, 2024, 3:16 PM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #246

dsign wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What really needs to happen is we need to figure out ways of facilitating friend formation/maintenance in this brave new world of the internet and atheism. We are going to need some new social technologies to really combat this. I wonder how in your opinion atheism enters in the picture? My first guess (of your reference) is that certain religions frighten people into remaining in a marriage they would otherwise no…

This is going on a tangent, but I would like to point out to you that Atheism is itself a religion: It's a belief in no god(s), a belief in refuting god(s). I'm Japanese, we (Japan) consider ourselves Non-Religious when we choose to celebrate newborn life at Shinto Shrines, weddings at Christian Churches, and funerals and graves at Buddhist Temples with no dogmatic attachment to any of them as an institution as we go…

Japanese are massively superstitious (as are most peoples). That's not quite the same as religion but it's somewhere in the same side of the spectrum.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#277

Post by DragonStrength » Sat, Dec 28, 2024, 3:17 PM UTC

motorest wrote: post #251

DragonStrength wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From an American's perspective, given how much Latin American migrant inflow we have, it'd be easy for us to say the same about Latin American cultures and not imagining how we could leave everything behind. Perhaps people's choices don't always reflect their desires and instead reflect the economic realities around them. "Getting out" is viewed as success where I was from because "staying behind" meant a worse life…

> From an American's perspective, given how much Latin American migrant inflow we have, it'd be easy for us to say the same about Latin American cultures and not imagining how we could leave everything behind. If you'd wish to make that claim then you'd be awfully wrong. To start off, you'd be basing your personal opinion on what would most charitably be described as survivorship bias. I mean, try to think about it.…

That the claim would be wrong is my whole point. Equally wrong to the original claims being made about the US population and their values.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#278

Post by nox101 » Sat, Dec 28, 2024, 3:22 PM UTC

grumpy-de-sre wrote: post #212

dlisboa wrote: post #71

Coming from a Latin American the idea of re-starting your life across the country for college and then again for work (multiple times sometimes) while away from family and friends is very foreign. A lot of the conversation around modern American youth feeling isolated, lacking socialization and not building strong relationships seems that stem from this drive. Another thing that’s really weird and related is another…

In Anglo cultures kids aren't usually moving away from home until they are at least ~18 years old. This is not a factor in teenagers feeling isolated. Suburbia and the decline of third places probably play a far greater role in this demographic. It's a common trope on here to lament on how the Anglo cultures don't value family ties strongly enough. I'd argue not overly valuing family ties has been a big competitive a…

what is your definition of "high trust society". I don't consider the USA a high trust society having lived in Japan and Singapore. In Japan and Singapore, I trust that others won't steal my stuff. I trust that I won't be mugged. I trust that my packages won't be stolen. I trust that my car will not be broken into.

In the USA and Europe I trust none of that. I've had cars broken into 5 times, bikes stolen 5 times, car stolen once. Reports of people stealing packages. I know I can't trust people at a coffee shop not to steal my laptop while I go to the restroom. Friend have had wallets stolen stopping to take a picture. etc.....

This means I trust no one in the USA or Europe. So to me, the USA an Europe are low trust societies.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#279

Post by nox101 » Sat, Dec 28, 2024, 3:22 PM UTC

pas wrote: post #221

grumpy-de-sre wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Anglo cultures kids aren't usually moving away from home until they are at least ~18 years old. This is not a factor in teenagers feeling isolated. Suburbia and the decline of third places probably play a far greater role in this demographic. It's a common trope on here to lament on how the Anglo cultures don't value family ties strongly enough. I'd argue not overly valuing family ties has been a big competitive a…

So, people moving away is not new and not surprising, and happens all over the world, it's basically the main driver of urbanization. What's new was (rich) people moving "back" (to suburbs for the American Dream, and nowadays to have kids). Though it's better than what used to happen - which was lots of kids, and high infant mortality, plus poverty driving kids to find jobs in cities, where bad living conditions and…

>The good news is that we have the social technology of ... affordable safe high density cities, with parks and high-rises (plus the obligatory blackjack and hookers too!) ... where people can be next to their new and old friends at the same time ... oh my!

No such cities exist in the USA

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#280

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 28, 2024, 3:22 PM UTC

grumpy-de-sre wrote: post #212

dlisboa wrote: post #71

Coming from a Latin American the idea of re-starting your life across the country for college and then again for work (multiple times sometimes) while away from family and friends is very foreign. A lot of the conversation around modern American youth feeling isolated, lacking socialization and not building strong relationships seems that stem from this drive. Another thing that’s really weird and related is another…

In Anglo cultures kids aren't usually moving away from home until they are at least ~18 years old. This is not a factor in teenagers feeling isolated. Suburbia and the decline of third places probably play a far greater role in this demographic. It's a common trope on here to lament on how the Anglo cultures don't value family ties strongly enough. I'd argue not overly valuing family ties has been a big competitive a…

[deleted]