If I'm gonna be fired for being honest and trying to do a good job, then I'm quitting.
How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired
271–280 of 346 posts
Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired
#272Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm always curious when comment responders glom on to the least important part of a comment and dissect it to no end. I took "is described in basically every handbook on highly effective communication in organizations." as essentially "the standard for communication in effective organizations is to be direct and to the point." It did not warrant a "SOURCES??!!" response IMO because it wasn't saying anything that was…
The claim didn't ring true to me, based on what I've read about the topic in the past, or based on my personal thoughts and experiences. So I wanted a source. It should be easy to provide a source, if sources are as plentiful as lijok says. >the standard for communication in effective organizations is to be direct and to the point. Sounds very nice, but empirically humans often struggle with frank feedback. I think t…
I agree, I think there was a Buddhist analysis of conversation, right speech, which I find useful as a guide to giving and receiving information: Is it well intentioned? Is it kind? Is it timely? Is it beneficial? Is it true?
I suppose that if you can craft feedback with this criteria in mind it’ll have a high chance of going over well.
Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired
#273Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…
There a lot more subtlety to this than you seem to indicate.
I’d never give negative feedback to an exec (+2 levels above me) in a large meeting. I’d wait for a more private setting.
With my immediate boss (director) I’d provide feedback in a small “managers only” group if I thought there was something to debate as a group, but not an open team meeting.
But your comments about subordinates is true. Generally try to keep feedback positive/constructive. And time it so they don’t feel attacked.
Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired
#274Earlier quoted context omitted.
At [company that purportedly highly values candor], I’ve seen multiple people get canned by VPs or directors they’ve criticized internally. Granted, these situations were cases where this was communicated either in a larger feedback meeting that was supposed to be a “safe” space for such feedback, or via other communications that were visible to more than just the person being criticized. These criticisms were defini…
I've seen this a lot, especially with junior folks getting on their high horse publicly about some direction or decision. Whenever it happens I make a point of putting a reminder in my calendar to check their corp Slack handle after three weeks to see if they're still employed. 9 out of 10 are deactivated when I check back. Hold your tongue, there's no such thing as a safe space in any all hands or group-level meetin…
Sorry you work in such a toxic job
Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired
#275This is not the first conversation on HN about management and feedback I've seen where the wide range of opinion and disagreement may reflect only 4 possible things:
1) There is some ideal way to interact that exists, but is not yet known, so we're all essentially still just fumbling in the dark and occasionally encountering light from an as-yet-unknown source
2) There is some ideal way to interact that is more or less understood by some but not all because it is simply not being communicated well (the rate of incoming employees is greater than the rate of knowledge spread- incidentally, this is the same problem I suspect exists with functional languages being perennially less-popular)
3) There is some ideal way to interact that is understood and known but is incompatible with existing and persistent (stable dysfunctional equilibrium) dysfunctionalities in orgs
4) There is in fact no ideal way to interact in a hierarchy because it is largely dependent on the individual personalities of the participants as well as the setup of the org
Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired
#276Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…
There a lot more subtlety to this than you seem to indicate. I’d never give negative feedback to an exec (+2 levels above me) in a large meeting. I’d wait for a more private setting. With my immediate boss (director) I’d provide feedback in a small “managers only” group if I thought there was something to debate as a group, but not an open team meeting. But your comments about subordinates is true. Generally try to k…
For (most) management. Absolutely do NOT do this:
"I’d wait for a more private setting."
Only do this IF you think management is well adjusted human being that is not ego driven. I leave it to reader to decide exactly how much of management falls into that bin.
If management is not, they will know that you are a threat to them and work to undermine you and get you removed. If you provide feedback publically they can less afford the reputational hit (if you're correct in your publically aired assessments).
In either case you must play nice with your coworkers and subordinates.
Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired
#277Just don't. It will never work out in your benefit. Just dont.
Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired
#278This is not the first conversation on HN about management and feedback I've seen where the wide range of opinion and disagreement may reflect only 4 possible things: 1) There is some ideal way to interact that exists, but is not yet known, so we're all essentially still just fumbling in the dark and occasionally encountering light from an as-yet-unknown source 2) There is some ideal way to interact that is more or le…
Mmm. There's also the 4th option is probably better expanded to, individual perception of communication are encoded and decided using fundamentally incompatible protocols because of entirely differing status, background, wealth and social structure.
I don't think personality real encapsulates it. I don't believe Elon musks personality has changed, but his fundamental GIGO has.
Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired
#279Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…
There is some important piece of context there though - if leaders aren't capable of the emotional intelligence to process blunt feedback, they are bad leaders and there is no hope of change . Learning to recognise them and just leave them alone is one of those valuable life skills that most employees learn sooner or later. Some people are just not going to take feedback and if they end up in management that is that;…
> there is no hope of change.
There is an off chance that management (I'm not using the word leadership here deliberately) is taking leadership coaching, that the coaching is good, and that the coach will actually intervene and bring about change. Small likelihood of course, but not zero.
Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired
#280Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Why would you get fired for giving feedback? Is this just a US thing? Possibly: in many places there they have "at will" employment, where they can basically fire you with little to no severance at any time for any reason. There are limits, but compared to most of Europe that's the gist of it. So yeah, you can be fired just because someone doesn't like you. And giving feedback is a good way to not be liked.
every employment should be at will!! is there a constitutional or birthright to employment at XYZ company? these discussion always look at one side, like “employer can’t fire employee X without paying severance and other junk” but if I started a company and said “if you leave the company you have to pay severance back to the company for leaving” everyone would be up in arms about it…
> every employment should be at will!!
I would agree in an ideal world where salaries are tied to a qualification (a notion a tad more nuanced than just diploma), instead of their job. While there is no (nor should be any) constitutional right to work at any given company, I think people should have an inalienable right to live. Which in practice means food, shelter, and health care at a minimum, regardless of their ability (perhaps even willingness) to work anywhere.
The compromise most EU countries have settled on is that once you're employed and past some probation period (in my line of work that can last up to 8 months), then they can't fire you without a damn good reason or a hefty severance (the better the reason the lower the severance, basically). But it cuts both ways: I personally can't leave immediately, I have to tell my employer 3 months in advance. It is in a way a kind of severance.