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Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

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Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#271

Post by MrMcCall »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #265
jajko wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard this feedback on Ozempic et al from my wife who is a GP some 6 months ago, when I mentioned how US is too much in comfort zone and addicted to HFCS to actually lose weight permanently, ever, so in good old weight-losing fads fashion they will just throw money at the problem, experiencing somewhat variable success and who knows what bad side effects. My wife told me exactly this - potentially all muscle mas…

> like its something against those facts above I’ve seen multiple friends go from eating like shit, including chugging sodas, to not compulsively ordering dessert and no sodas in the house. I think all of them have since quit Ozempic, each seeing some rebound but nothing comprehensive and, most notably to your argument, not in the behaviour modifications.

The only way to lose weight without damaging oneself is to combine more exercise with less eating, which means becoming comfortable being hungry. Yes, it's difficult -- especially after developing bad eating habits over a long time -- but moderation is required in all things. It takes a long time to become overweight, so the ramp down to a leaner existence must necessarily take a significant amount of time, or there's going to be added risk.

Just like in programming, there is no silver bullet; there's only hard work.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#272

Post by in_a_hole »

0xEF wrote: post #263
tomhoward wrote: post #181

I'm not commenting specifically on the heart-muscle aspect of the study, but it shouldn't be a surprise that the weight loss from this drug is significantly attributable to muscle loss; it almost always is when dieting. It's the same with keto/low-carb or any other kind of caloric-restrictive dieting (which Ozempic facilitates). The modern weight-loss programs I'm seeing now (at least those aimed mostly at middle-age…

Diet and exercise. It always comes back to that, yet people avoid it like the plague. The modern weight loss program you described is pushed because that's what people want; an extremely low-effort methodology that yields extremely high results. The idea that their is some silver bullet to weight loss has dominated the US health market for ages now because selling someone a pill that they don't have to do anything bu…

How has the gastric bypass affected this person? It would not have occurred to me that the brain would be affected.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#273

Post by metafunctor »

cyberax wrote: post #229
jjallen wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the people who lift weights while on this/these drugs, how much lean muscle do they lose? The point is is that most people lose muscle because they’re not lifting. You will lose muscle if you lose weight no matter the cause, if you are not lifting weights.

> For the people who lift weights while on this/these drugs, how much lean muscle do they lose? I was 92kg when I started on liraglutide (I was doing GLP-1 agonists before it was cool!) and 67% of muscle mass (61kg). I'm now at 69kg and 82% of muscle mass (56kg). I'm doing weight and resistance training twice a week, in addition to aerobic training. One nice thing, while muscles don't become more massive, they for su…

Those muscle mass percentages cannot be right. How were they measured?

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#274

Post by 0xEF »

in_a_hole wrote: post #272
0xEF wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diet and exercise. It always comes back to that, yet people avoid it like the plague. The modern weight loss program you described is pushed because that's what people want; an extremely low-effort methodology that yields extremely high results. The idea that their is some silver bullet to weight loss has dominated the US health market for ages now because selling someone a pill that they don't have to do anything bu…

How has the gastric bypass affected this person? It would not have occurred to me that the brain would be affected.

We were surprised, too. Their personality changed to be a lot more aggressive and they started compulsively lying, then stealing things from stores, and some strange draw toward self-harm and getting "corrective" surgeries. Previously, this person was typically pleasant, if not a little outspoken at times.

There is suspicion that they had a pre-existing mental health issue they were hiding, and the very fast changes that happened in their body triggered it to either manifest or get worse. We are left guessing because they refuse to see any doctors that won't just write prescriptions for meds or minor elective surgeries, now.

These days, more and more evidence is piling up about the gut-brain connection, but no conclusions are being drawn quite yet. Though, from my own experience, it is not difficult to convince me that one certainly impacts the other.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#275

Post by in_a_hole »

0xEF wrote: post #274
in_a_hole wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How has the gastric bypass affected this person? It would not have occurred to me that the brain would be affected.

We were surprised, too. Their personality changed to be a lot more aggressive and they started compulsively lying, then stealing things from stores, and some strange draw toward self-harm and getting "corrective" surgeries. Previously, this person was typically pleasant, if not a little outspoken at times. There is suspicion that they had a pre-existing mental health issue they were hiding, and the very fast changes…

I'm sorry to hear that happened to someone close to you, thank you for sharing.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#276

Post by 5636553454654 »

Sheeny96 wrote: post #266
tomhoward wrote: post #181

I'm not commenting specifically on the heart-muscle aspect of the study, but it shouldn't be a surprise that the weight loss from this drug is significantly attributable to muscle loss; it almost always is when dieting. It's the same with keto/low-carb or any other kind of caloric-restrictive dieting (which Ozempic facilitates). The modern weight-loss programs I'm seeing now (at least those aimed mostly at middle-age…

Whilst it is 95% calories in calories out, keto (not low carb, as low carb doesn't include high fat) can be good for muscle retention whilst in a defecit - as more foods that you consume naturally have higher protein (I utilise keto when looking to drop body fat, consuming a lot of slightly higher fat cuts of meat as a replacement for the carb calories, so chicken thighs instead of breast, 10% ground beef,etc). The h…

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Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#277

Post by ANewFormation »

tomhoward wrote: post #181

I'm not commenting specifically on the heart-muscle aspect of the study, but it shouldn't be a surprise that the weight loss from this drug is significantly attributable to muscle loss; it almost always is when dieting. It's the same with keto/low-carb or any other kind of caloric-restrictive dieting (which Ozempic facilitates). The modern weight-loss programs I'm seeing now (at least those aimed mostly at middle-age…

The percents are very different. For example in bodybuilding one normally 'bulks' while working out, because it maximizes muscle gain. But then naturally this needs to be paired with cutting, unless you're a Greek Grizzly, but the total muscle loss is relatively negligible, especially when maintaining a proper high protein diet.

At 40% muscle loss you're getting awful close to losing weight while increasing your body fat percent!

But of course you're right that diet+exercise is key but for those maintaining such, they wouldn't end up on these drugs to start with.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#278

Post by jstummbillig »

0xEF wrote: post #263
tomhoward wrote: post #181

I'm not commenting specifically on the heart-muscle aspect of the study, but it shouldn't be a surprise that the weight loss from this drug is significantly attributable to muscle loss; it almost always is when dieting. It's the same with keto/low-carb or any other kind of caloric-restrictive dieting (which Ozempic facilitates). The modern weight-loss programs I'm seeing now (at least those aimed mostly at middle-age…

Diet and exercise. It always comes back to that, yet people avoid it like the plague. The modern weight loss program you described is pushed because that's what people want; an extremely low-effort methodology that yields extremely high results. The idea that their is some silver bullet to weight loss has dominated the US health market for ages now because selling someone a pill that they don't have to do anything bu…

> The modern weight loss program you described is pushed because that's what people want; an extremely low-effort methodology that yields extremely high results.

I think it's a mistake to think of it as what people want. It's what people can do.

We have to acknowledge a fundamental struggle that we have with dieting and working out. Pretending it's just hard, when statistics show what is true at a societal level, will not bring us solutions.

We need something else. Either that's massive societal change to i.e. approach something like the diet/workout culture you have in Japan. That's hard. Or, as with many other of our health problems that we can't just will away, it's drugs.

Not believing in progress here, when drugs progress everywhere, is unnecessary. Current generations might have issues. Drugs will be better. We won't.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#279

Post by BigJ1211 »

watwut wrote: post #255
m463 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, being overweight takes years off your life: "Specifically, we found that BMIs from 40 to 44 were associated with 6.5 years of life lost, but this increased to 8.9 for BMIs from 45 to 49, 9.8 for BMIs from 50 to 54, and 13.7 for BMIs from 55 to 59." I think for some people the roi is measurable and reasonable. https://irp.nih.gov/blog/post/2020/01/extreme-obesity-shaves...

Being obese takes years off your life. Being slightly overweight is associated with best longevity. BMIs from 40 to 44 is massively obese, not overweight.

The "perfect" fat percentage for men when it comes to health is around the 22% range. For women it's significantly higher. (35% iirc)

I'll try to find the study/abstract later if people care.

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