The withering dream of a cheap American electric car • Hacker News Board

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#271

Post by solardev » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 4:35 PM UTC

the_gastropod wrote: post #241

It's weird the Chevy Bolt wasn't mentioned. After the $7500 tax credit, you could get a brand new Chevy Bolt for under $20k. If you haven't driven a Bolt, I can't recommend it more. It's about as perfect as car as I could reasonably dream up. It's a hatchback, minimally gimmicky (compared to, e.g, a Tesla, where so many things are "different" for the sake of being different), unnecessarily fast—truly, it's shocking h…

Didn't they recall all of them for a few years due to some safety issues? Are they fixed yet?

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#272

Post by AnotherGoodName » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 4:35 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #243

latentcall wrote: post #227

I would love a 10-15K BYD. I was told recently desiring a BYD is un-American when I can spend 3 times the price on a Tesla. No thanks! I’ll hold out for something truly cheap. Cars in America are insanely priced.

Protecting local manufacturers from cheap offshore labor is rational, especially if the offshore products are being subsidized specifically to undermine incumbents and put them out of business. I get that individual consumers want the cheapest trinket they can find, but the gov't has to be more strategic. And every country does this, including the one that would be the source of these trinkets.

It leads to market separation. No one outside the US will buy US made when they have cheaper Chinese cars as an option. And the US can’t force external competitiveness to emerge with those subsidies in place. Not to mention internally having to buy more expensive transport has knock on effects to the entire economy.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#273

Post by epistasis » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 4:36 PM UTC

solardev wrote: post #263

GratiaTerra wrote: post #248

I took advantage of the IRA solar power and $7500 EV credit, now I have an off grid home all electric appliances and excess power for hot tubs and EV's. The Ford Lightning acts as a generator. This was the greatest most life changing and impactful legistlation ever: I've had $0 (ZERO!) in gasoline, LP, and electric utility bills since installation last year.

Does your state pay you retail for your production? And have you gotten your first annual true up bill yet? That setup is a dream for a lot of people, but it's not always easy to make happen depending on state regulations (and how powerful the utilities there are)...

> I have an off grid home

Seems like the utilities aren't involved at all?

Cheap storage actually makes grid defection a possibility for a ton of people these days. Especially when you start considering the cost of upgrading 100 amp service to 200 amp or similar. Once you've added a bit of battery, might as well go a bit more, and use your vehicle for additional backup when necessary.

People having 70kWh or more of mobile battery in the garage is going to change the calculation for a lot of people. Many people who would never install solar unless it saves them money will also spend a tooooooon of money on a big truck for aesthetic reasons, and then find that it makes solar a cheaper propositon.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#274

Post by Iulioh » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 4:36 PM UTC

engineer_22 wrote: post #266

mobilene wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Yep, automakers have deliberately gone after higher profit margins per vehicle. Huge-volume, lower-cost cars are slowly going away. Get one while you can, if that's your thing.

US Congress has mandated a growing list of advanced features, leading to complex vehicles, complex supply chains, and higher sticker prices.

That's not the problem there.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#275

Post by noworriesnate » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 4:36 PM UTC

WorldMaker wrote: post #120

bryanlarsen wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're never going to a hybrid under $25,000. Pretty much everywhere but the US has the option of getting an electric car for under $25,000 from BYD or Renault. I've done over 20,000 km in road trips in an EV. You charge while you're eating or toileting or sleeping, it doesn't affect my trips.

> Pretty much everywhere but the US has the option of getting an electric car for under $25,000 from BYD or Renault. The US is afraid of competition in the automotive industry and the current import tariffs and taxes on cars are a bit of an elephant in the room here, too.

We have three choices: 1) compete by enslaving our workers and treating them horribly like they do in China, 2) refuse to compete by simply outsourcing the slavery to China, or 3) compete by treat our workers well, use tariffs and tacitly admit that Trump has a good idea. Option 2 seems like the only option that is afraid of competition.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#276

Post by AnotherGoodName » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 4:37 PM UTC

kjksf wrote: post #267

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny thing is that Musk himself said the “Shanghai built Tesla's are the best quality Tesla's” and he’s fully leaning into Chinese manufacturing. I suspect what will happen is that cheap Chinese imports will come into the USA but only for select manufacturers who benefit the current administration. So no cheap byd’s but possibly cheap Tesla’s.

Tesla cars sold in US are the most American build cars. See https://www.carpro.com/blog/most-american-made-vehicle-the-t... What it means that if you count what percentage of car parts are made in America, Tesla has higher percentage that other brands, even those you might consider "more" American, like GM or Ford. All Teslas sold in America are assembled in America (California or Texas). Ford Mustang, for example, i…

I’m saying that Chinese made teslas might be allowed in the USA in the near future.

Musk himself has stated bluntly that USA made teslas are lower quality and more expensive so you can see the desire to shut down the US plants and bring in Chinese made Teslas and he clearly has some political sway now.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#277

Post by NelsonMinar » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 4:38 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #243

latentcall wrote: post #227

I would love a 10-15K BYD. I was told recently desiring a BYD is un-American when I can spend 3 times the price on a Tesla. No thanks! I’ll hold out for something truly cheap. Cars in America are insanely priced.

Protecting local manufacturers from cheap offshore labor is rational, especially if the offshore products are being subsidized specifically to undermine incumbents and put them out of business. I get that individual consumers want the cheapest trinket they can find, but the gov't has to be more strategic. And every country does this, including the one that would be the source of these trinkets.

Do you think this argument applies to microprocessor manufacture?

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#278

Post by epistasis » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 4:38 PM UTC

torginus wrote: post #265

bartvk wrote: post #2

https://archive.ph/9oIT4 I wish it would have adjusted for inflation. One quote: "The average transaction price for a new vehicle sold in the U.S. last month was $48,623, according to Kelley Blue Book, roughly $10,000 higher than in 2019, before the pandemic." However, about 9200 euros of that is due to inflation according to this calculator: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ That's a nitpick though. All in all,…

I honestly don't get it - the median income in the US is like $35k - assuming people don't want to drive vehicles older than a decade, do people really spend a sixth of their total income on cars? In Europe the numbers are even worse. I'm fairly convinced only rich people and businesses buy new cars

A lot of people buy used cars rather than new cars. The wealthiest buy the new cars, eat the cost of most of the depreciation, then sell them.

If we had a functioning housing market, you'd see something pretty similar there too. The wealthiest would be the ones paying for nearly all the new construction, instead of driving up the cost of housing for everyone else.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#279

Post by solardev » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 4:38 PM UTC

burnt-resistor wrote: post #79

yapyap wrote: post #20

I doubt a cheap american electric car is the real withering dream with people not being able to put a roof over their head

The American dream would have both. Unfortunately, while BYD would be the most readily-available option for cheap cars, it would need: homologation, distributors, parts suppliers, repeal of the protectionist tariffs protecting Tesla, and the removal of Musk from an unfair position of power, influence, and regulatory capture, and whatever the heck DOGE will be. The larger issue is that, in order to afford housing, a c…

American Dream? At this point I'd settle for some reasonable chance that I'd be able to still rent an apt and put food on the table next year, nevermind actually owning anything or ever retiring, lol.

I'll be squarely in the have-not camp, eager to serve our rich robot-assisted overlords.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#280

Post by dec0dedab0de » Mon, Nov 18, 2024, 4:39 PM UTC

solardev wrote: post #268

latentcall wrote: post #227

I would love a 10-15K BYD. I was told recently desiring a BYD is un-American when I can spend 3 times the price on a Tesla. No thanks! I’ll hold out for something truly cheap. Cars in America are insanely priced.

Half of America doesn't want to support the incoming administration either, and Musk has decided to closely and personally align himself with it. I wonder if that will affect Tesla sales.

I kinda think the whole thing is just Elon tricking republicans into buying electric cars.