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Jaywalking legalized in New York City

theguardian.com

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Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#271

Post by wkat4242 »

nobody9999 wrote: post #247
bsimpson wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New York is probably the only place in the US where most of the drivers did not learn to drive here. It's the most international city in the US, and a disproportionate number of people who use the roads (taxis, delivery drivers, etc) grew up in places that have a traffic system very different that the US's. People in New York routinely run red lights, roll through crosswalks, ride in the shoulder - things that you mi…

>New York is probably the only place in the US where most of the drivers did not learn to drive here. Yep. They "learned" in Connecticut, New Jersey and Long Island. And that's really scary. As I mentioned, MTA bus drivers are the worst at this sort of thing. And they learned to drive (at least their buses) here in NYC. Got anything else you want to blame on immigrants? It seems to be trending behavior. And more's th…

> Got anything else you want to blame on immigrants? It seems to be trending behavior. And more's the pity.

Also, getting a license in many countries is far more difficult than in the US. Where I'm from there aren't even learner permits. The only way to learn is to take lessons with a real instructor and the exam is really strict. Most people fail several times and spend thousands on getting it.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#272

Post by pixelfarmer »

mc32 wrote: post #164
standardUser wrote: post #108

First, let's not forget that jaywalking is one of those "crimes" that is used as a pretense by police to harass people, usually young people and people of color. Second, as a veteran jaywalker, my rule of thumb is that if a car has to hit their breaks even a little, or otherwise alter their trajectory, you're doing it wrong. The goal should be smooth movement for all. Third, just because someone else is jaywalking do…

Traveling in Germany where there is a culture of biking and walking I found that jaywalking is never the less very much frowned upon by regular people and they see it as a transgression of norms.

Germans have this "StVO" which regulates the rules in traffic and also what happens if you not follow them. Crossing a red light can result in a ticket, no matter whether you are a pedestrian or driving a car. Naturally, doing that in a car is a strict no-go, while pedestrians, if there is no car traffic, you will see them ignoring it. Still, they can be fined for doing so regardless whether there was car traffic or not. However, breaking the rules laid out in StVO is not a felony. It can become one if we talk about reckless driving which results in dead people.

Away (enough) from traffic lights, crossing streets is perfectly fine, but you have to watch the traffic. Walking on a street (i.e. not just crossing it) can be considered a "traffic hazard" (if there is any traffic to begin with) and may result in a fine as well. One thing clearly forbidden is crossing an Autobahn by foot which is why there are always bridges or tunnels to cross it, for pedestrians and other traffic alike.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#273

Post by jedberg »

7speter wrote: post #263
jedberg wrote: post #159

As far as I know, NYC is unique in that pedestrians do not have the right of way. Everywhere else you must legally stop for a pedestrian but in NYC you don't. (edit, since people seem confused: This doesn't mean you can run them over. It just means you don't have to stop if you are going to block their path. Everywhere else, you have to stop if you are going to block a pedestrian's path, no matter where that pedestri…

There was a law passed in NYC a couple of years ago requiring drivers not to enter a crosswalk if pedestrians are in a crosswalk. I have no clue what you're talking about.

They don't have the right of way outside of a crosswalk, which is different than most other places, where they still do.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#274

Post by mikhailfranco »

In general, jaywalking should be legal, but ...

There is one situation where some kind of enforcement is needed: crowds of people ignoring pedestrian signals, and flooding across crosswalks continuously. Then the traffic never gets a chance to move. Cars cannot safely crawl or nudge their way through the throng of people, who feel the protection of collective security.

One might argue that such large crowds are an indication that the road should be fully pedestrianized - perhaps by time-of-day, or only for specific shopping holidays (e.g. Black Friday, Xmas). The alternative for these peaks is often manual control of people and vehicles by a police/traffic/community officer, like a school crossing).

Perhaps there could be some critical crossings where there is a legally enforceable 'double-red' pedestrian signal.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#275

Post by mikhailfranco »

One consequence of legalizing jaywalking, may be increased prevention by fences and barriers.

Low railings may be jumped by an agile adult, but they stop children, elderly, wheelchairs, pushchairs, suitcases or people with heavy shopping.

Divided highways may get (more) high fences in the central reservation to deter jaywalking - but of course the frustrated locals will eventually cut convenient holes.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#276

Post by bitwize »

caekislove wrote: post #218
elif wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea the herd mentality is why jaywalking is unethical. I've witnessed someone try to cross early, triggering literally ~20 people to follow, only for the light to change and everyone collectively realized they had no right of way and stepped back. It's easy to see how this could result in tragedy. Germany, Japan, there is strict social compliance so it feels right anyway.

I don't know about ALL of Japan, but in Tokyo, pedestrians frequently ignore red lights and seeing cars with green lights waiting while a large group of jaywalkers is crossing in front of them is not an uncommon sight.

In Osaka, crossers formed a queue at the don't walk signal and crossed in an orderly fashion as soon as they got a walk -- not a moment before.

They knew that as soon as the auto traffic got a green, it would go full bore and seemingly not stop for anyone or anything.

Quite different from my time in Boston where the optimal strategy is to ignore the walk signal and cross when there was a significant gap in traffic -- because it's likely that several cars would attempt to make a turn while the walk signal was on, blowing your chance to cross anyway.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#277

Post by goodpoint »

wahern wrote: post #109
metabagel wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, crossing at intersections is much more complex, with traffic typically coming from many more directions than away from intersections.

And yet jaywalking accounts for the majority of pedestrian deaths, despite being a fraction of the number of crossings. Believe it or not, most drivers do look out for pedestrians. Some better than others, but another set of eyeballs is invaluable, especially from the actual car that risks hitting you. Unfortunately, drivers do not expect people to cross in the middle of the street. And they never will, generally spe…

> jaywalking accounts for the majority of pedestrian deaths

No, car drivers are responsible for pedestrian deaths. Please put the blame where in belongs.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#278

Post by goodpoint »

standardUser wrote: post #243
mslate wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes yes, the person outside of a car must provide deference to the car owner. Poor people serve the rich.

If you have a point you can feel free to make a point instead on snidely putting words in someone else's mouth. And where exactly do you live where only rich people drive cars?

Are you saying that car ownership is equally distributed even down to the poorest 1%?

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#279

Post by goodpoint »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #96
94b45eb4 wrote: post #25

So if you are waiting at an intersection pedestrian crossings and getting impatient you can just move over a bit and cross anyway?

It means pedestrians are always right even when they are wrong. Especially when they are wrong. It means they can do whatever they want whenever they want wherever they want and everybody else on the road is obligated to accomodate them.

> It means they can do whatever they want whenever they want wherever they want and everybody else on the road is obligated to accomodate them.

Excellent.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#280

Post by elliottkember »

dathinab wrote: post #187
gxonatano wrote: post #87

Let's not forget that jaywalking was essentially created by the automotive industry and its lobbyists, to make life more convenient for drivers. It started in car-heavy places like California, and eventually became a law virtually everywhere in the US, but was never really enforced in New York City, where most people walk or take public transit, rather than drive. If, like most New Yorkers, you walk several kilometer…

>New Yorkers don't have a concept of "jaywalking"; it's just "walking." It's also not a word in the German language at all, it's just "crossing the road". If you do it safely grate, if you don't not grate and if there are children nearby unsafe road crossing is really something you shouldn't do, especially it it's just because you are to lazy to walk a small bit more (I think crossing a road close by a pedestrian cro…

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