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Batteries: How cheap can they get?

aukehoekstra.substack.com

271–280 of 311 posts

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're worried about a weather emergency that takes out your power, followed a few days later by a second emergency that requires you to evacuate a long distance? I don't think I'd do very much to prepare for that scenario.

It can be the same emergency. It doesn't have to be a second one. You might plan on riding out a storm, thinking utilities might be out a day or two max. Day 5, still no utilities, no known date for resumption of services, and supplies are running extremely low. How do you get out?

In the best case: Just deal with it proactively. Watch supplies, try to stay informed. You mitigate what you can to stretch things out (making French toast in a skillet outside on the BBQ grill in the aftermath of a winter storm may be the best way to use available energy and feed people a tasty meal, even if it does seem absurd). Plan to leave before things become unmanageable, and adjust that plan as things change, and be willing to resolutely execute that plan before things go from bad to worse.

If you forecast that your supplies will be very slim on day 5, and you haven't left for greener pastures by day 3 or 4, then the the worst case is already unfolding. GTFO before the worst-case ever happens.

But in that worst case: One can call on someone else for help. This is one of those situations where it's time to cash in some favors, and/or where it pays off to always be friendly and helpful with to the neighbors even if they really seem like a bunch of assholes. (The time to start being friendly with the neighbors is right now, by the way.)

(My own backup plan only keeps me rolling both semi-comfortably and independently for about 24 or 48 hours without power in the winter, so I'm leaving after the first night or ASAP. I don't have the complications and niceties offered by something like an F-150 Lightning, but finite resources remain finite no matter their form.)

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just about everything in Australia needs a license to do. Even down to network cabling.

The rule is - if it's going inside the wall, only a licenced electrician can do it. Yes it also extends to things like speaker or HDMI cables. It's mad.

HDMI cables? Sounds like protectionism. Invent rules to make yourself more work.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want a DIY-friendly option, it's best to look towards DC optimizers. They are installed on each panel and they provide a steady 48V output. They also do MPPT tracking on the panel level, so you get the best possible performance if you have some shading. Unlike microinverters that are notoriously unreliable, DC optimizers so far have excellent long-term reliability.

Are you suggesting using a DC Optimizer from your solar panels to charge 48V batteries directly? This would be interesting. It's the first I've heard of optimizers being used for anything other than prior to an inverter.

You absolutely can do that. You still need a charging controller and a BMS, obviously. But you can avoid the AC round-tripping.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rule is - if it's going inside the wall, only a licenced electrician can do it. Yes it also extends to things like speaker or HDMI cables. It's mad.

HDMI cables? Sounds like protectionism. Invent rules to make yourself more work.

Aren't there power delivery versions of HDMI?

I can understand requiring a license for any power wires behind walls.

I could also see the possibility that it's just an old law that doesn't consider data-only cables which don't have the safety issues that wires carrying power do.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#275
post #145
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the quotes and interactions I had with the local solar installers were reminiscent of the used car lot if not outright fraud. I was able to do what was permissible myself and a regular licensed electrician did the rest. The equipment is UL listed. There was some learning curve but I found the diysolarforum.com to be a pretty good resource to learn what I didn't know. I ran the whole setup standalone for about…

> All of the quotes and interactions I had with the local solar installers were reminiscent of the used car lot if not outright fraud. I had exactly the same experience. They absolutely would not tell me the actual system cost, only how much I would save on my current bill per month. It felt exactly like a car salesman only talking about monthly payments, and it was horrible.

Yeah. Talked to a couple of solar companies. They were utterly focused on costs vs utility costs and very opaque about how that was being modeled. And it was based on the rules back then--which of course could not hold. Net metering is a huge subsidy that is already being walked back.

The true value of solar or wind is the cost of the fuel it saves. Nothing more. Even if his numbers come true there's a big problem--bad weather could deplete your batteries. You want to turn to the electric company in that case? You are once again in the situation that the value is only the fuel.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#276
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be the same emergency. It doesn't have to be a second one. You might plan on riding out a storm, thinking utilities might be out a day or two max. Day 5, still no utilities, no known date for resumption of services, and supplies are running extremely low. How do you get out?

In the best case: Just deal with it proactively. Watch supplies, try to stay informed. You mitigate what you can to stretch things out (making French toast in a skillet outside on the BBQ grill in the aftermath of a winter storm may be the best way to use available energy and feed people a tasty meal, even if it does seem absurd). Plan to leave before things become unmanageable, and adjust that plan as things change,…

You're either not going to have much meaningful backup power or you're not going to have much usable range if your plan is based on consuming the energy on your car while holed up and also using that energy to potentially drive a couple hundred miles. That's my real point here.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#277
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the quotes and interactions I had with the local solar installers were reminiscent of the used car lot if not outright fraud. I was able to do what was permissible myself and a regular licensed electrician did the rest. The equipment is UL listed. There was some learning curve but I found the diysolarforum.com to be a pretty good resource to learn what I didn't know. I ran the whole setup standalone for about…

This approach may vary by country. Not a single sparky in Australia will sign off on someone else's solar/battery install.

I'm currently in a pickle in this regard, as my new house has solar on Net Metering, but no ATS or battery. While its nice to only pay the base connection fee, I still go dark when the line power does.

I'd love to add at the very least an ATS to keep my fridge and freezer going when the power goes out during the day, if not a battery but I have little to no documentation on the existing solar install, so i'm reaching out to the county to see if permits have any info. Fun times!

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#278
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the best case: Just deal with it proactively. Watch supplies, try to stay informed. You mitigate what you can to stretch things out (making French toast in a skillet outside on the BBQ grill in the aftermath of a winter storm may be the best way to use available energy and feed people a tasty meal, even if it does seem absurd). Plan to leave before things become unmanageable, and adjust that plan as things change,…

You're either not going to have much meaningful backup power or you're not going to have much usable range if your plan is based on consuming the energy on your car while holed up and also using that energy to potentially drive a couple hundred miles. That's my real point here.

Do you have a destination in mind within a couple hundred miles? I hope you're not setting up to get stranded on the highway.

I think I'd be sorting weather events into two buckets: "I can get somewhere that wasn't hit hard with 50-100 miles of range" or "I need to travel a distance measured in states and refueling will be needed". So the difference between "full battery" and "half battery" is pretty tiny, and I can do plenty of house-powering.

When I think of evacuating a long distance, I think of something like a hurricane where you should be getting out of the way before it hits. If you're in the aftermath of a storm, you don't need to go more than 100 but less than 300 miles.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#279
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the best case: Just deal with it proactively. Watch supplies, try to stay informed. You mitigate what you can to stretch things out (making French toast in a skillet outside on the BBQ grill in the aftermath of a winter storm may be the best way to use available energy and feed people a tasty meal, even if it does seem absurd). Plan to leave before things become unmanageable, and adjust that plan as things change,…

You're either not going to have much meaningful backup power or you're not going to have much usable range if your plan is based on consuming the energy on your car while holed up and also using that energy to potentially drive a couple hundred miles. That's my real point here.

It depends on what "meaningful backup power" is.

If I had an EV that I could use to run house-sized stuff with, and the power were off for an indefinite time due to a storm or something, then I'd like to think that I'd use that EV just as sparingly as I would my little Jackery device and portable solar panel (that I can coax at most about 80W from on a perfectly-sunny day).

I can use my rig to [sparingly] run some lights, a small fan, and to keep portable electronics going -- with hardwired Internet if that is something that is useful/extant for information or to pass the time with.

But I'm not going to use it to run the fridge, the home theater, the thirsty desktop PC, or using the laundry machines or the HVAC. I'm also not cooking with it.

I have a portable heater that will keep me warm, and enough fuel to do this for a day or two. I know how to keep the water running to keep pipes from breaking. I don't need the fridge: When the power goes off, I can unload the important stuff into my Orca cooler along with the last contents of the self-refilling ice bin in the freezer and it'll stay fine for days. If it's stupid-cold outside, the frozen stuff that I'd like to try to keep can go outside in a tote. I have a propane grill for quick outdoor cooking with plenty of fuel, and a butane burner for indoor cooking that also has a reasonable amount of fuel for making coffee or frying some eggs or whatever.

I've tested these methods off-grid. They work.

While I do enjoy the wonders of modern electrification rather immensely, and TBH I'd find myself struggling to get through a day without some small aspects of it, I don't need a ton of it to feel reasonably comfortable for a limited time.

In this very limited use (which is not dissimilar to car-camping inside of a house), a suitable EV can probably cope for a few days without substantially reducing its immediately-useful range. It'a a small drop in a large bucket of battery power.

It can probably also keep the fridge running, and run a furnace that burns dinosaurs: If the regular F150 Lightning has a 98kWh battery, and one draws an average of 500W from that battery (which is a rather hefty average if living lightly post-disaster), then one uses ~12% of its capacity (or about 28 miles of its 230 mile range) per 24-hour day.

Over two days (48 hours), that's only 56 miles spent of 230 possible miles.

What kind of disaster can you imagine where "losing" that 56 miles of range would be of any consequence -- where 56 miles means the difference between "Oh, we got this. Everything is fine." and "ZOMG if only we could drive a little further! But we can't! We're RUINED!!!"

I can't think of any that have happened around here in my own lifetime,

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#280
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This approach may vary by country. Not a single sparky in Australia will sign off on someone else's solar/battery install.

Isn't there a distinction between the house wiring and the solar/battery stuff? P.S. I've never heard of sparky being used as slang for an electrician, sounds very aussie.

In the US, sparky is common slang electrician among the trades, but far loss-so for end customers who are looking to hire one.
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