Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#271

Post by sbarre » Mon, Jul 01, 2024, 1:05 AM UTC

belorn wrote: post #182

sbarre wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you cite an example of where Canadian protests by "lefties" took over a major public road for weeks on end, and disrupted the lives of thousands of citizens, harassing them, depriving them of sleep, preventing their ability to get to/from their homes and businesses? I can tell you're already very convinced of who was right and wrong in this and you're trying to make this a left vs right thing, but there are limit…

> before civil society (via it's police force and/or government) says "ok, that's enough". Can you elaborate why it is "and/or government". Why is it acceptable that the government by-pass the normal legal system in dealing with protestors?

> Why is it acceptable that the government by-pass the normal legal system in dealing with protestors?

I'm not going to debate whether it was legal or not with you because (I'm assuming) neither of us are lawyers.

I'll say that I don't particularly agree with the bank account shenanigans they pulled, but they only did that because the Ottawa police force completely failed to do their job in dealing with the blockade.

I definitely don't like the precedent that was set, but having seen the blockade first hand (it was not a "peaceful protest", it was an aggressive encampment that was regularly threatening to passerbys and locals) and the impact it had on the area - my parents live nearby - they had to do something.

I support the rights of citizens to protest but as I said, there's a limit.

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#272

Post by throw0101b » Mon, Jul 01, 2024, 1:06 AM UTC

pasabagi wrote: post #250

throw0101b wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's often pretty hard to do public protest without breaking some kind of law, even if you do everything you're supposed to. All movements start small, and if you want to have your movement be a success it involves bringing more and more people over to your point of view / side. One can be disruptive in that you hold a rally or march to raise awareness, and be seen (in numbers) by folks on the street. Marches / par…

I don't know: as I understood it, the trucker thing was basically about showing that they occupy a strategic position in the Canadian economy. It's like the old rail strike idea: it doesn't matter if everybody hates you, if the trains aren't running, then the government has to make a deal, otherwise the economy collapses. I don't think they actually did hold that strategic position (if the police had, you know, done…

> I don't know: as I understood it, the trucker thing was basically about showing that they occupy a strategic position in the Canadian economy.

And yet various organizations that represent truckers, both organized unions and independents, distanced themselves from the convoy:

* https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/embarrassment-for-the-industry...

* https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/canadian-trucking-...

* https://teamster.org/2022/02/teamsters-denounce-freedom-conv...

If the convoy was anything but a bunch of anti-vaxxers, they failed to really convey that message from my perspective.

> And that was a lot of the rhetoric from the truckers about themselves: I guess we'd just come out of the pandemic with all these sudden realizations about essential workers […]

I have first-hand knowledge of essential workers because of family connections to nursing and retail (food/groceries). I also have family connections to people who actually run trucking companies, and do maintenance on rigs.

I personally got deemed an essential worker by my company because of my IT role, and got a letter on company letterhead stating as such for any time I had to come into the office, in case I should perhaps be stopped for breaking curfew (the organization I was with had connections with medical treatment).

I don't think anyone would reasonably deny truckers are often essential, but the number of truckers making a fuss about was a tiny majority that worked in the industry.

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#273

Post by sbarre » Mon, Jul 01, 2024, 1:14 AM UTC

JacobThreeThree wrote: post #242

sbarre wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you cite an example of where Canadian protests by "lefties" took over a major public road for weeks on end, and disrupted the lives of thousands of citizens, harassing them, depriving them of sleep, preventing their ability to get to/from their homes and businesses? I can tell you're already very convinced of who was right and wrong in this and you're trying to make this a left vs right thing, but there are limit…

Here's one where the protesters blockaded rail lines for months causing layoffs and many millions in lost revenue. Why didn't the government shut down these protestors bank accounts? https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/via-rail-layoffs-1.5468617

Not really "lefties" here, but this is a reasonable example...

I will say that First Nations issues in Canada are pretty complicated, particularly when it comes to unceded territories and the rights around those.

It's also worth mentioning that those rail line blockades in Ontario were done in support of other protests in BC where the government eventually sent cops in riot gear to dismantle the blockades by violence.

Something that didn't happen in Ottawa, and I'll let you figure out why.

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#274

Post by throw0101b » Mon, Jul 01, 2024, 1:20 AM UTC

adamiscool8 wrote: post #200

throw0101b wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You seem to be trying to conflate blocking a road and honking your horn with violence... In order to defend fucking with non-violent protesters bank accounts directly (and very illegally). Do you want your movement to succeed? If yes, then don't piss off the non-members / the general public, and try to get them on your side. That is what MLK understood and did. That is what Nelson Mandela did not understand when he…

>“We do not need allies more devoted to order than to justice,” Martin Luther King, Jr.

What justice was the trucker convoy looking for? What injustice were they fighting against? What grave depravity had they long suffered against?

You are quoting from "Letter from a Birmingham Jail", which also states:

> In any nonviolent campaign there are four basic steps: collection of the facts to determine whether injustices exist; negotiation; self purification; and direct action.

* https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....

The convoy did not do the first three steps, or if they did, they did not effectively show the public that they did.

From my perspective (or "my truth" as the kids are wont to say these days) they were a bunch of anti-vaxxers railing against da gubermint.

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#275

Post by matthewdgreen » Mon, Jul 01, 2024, 1:29 AM UTC

wenc wrote: post #249

matthewdgreen wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in a smaller, independent guitar store for a few years in the 90s. We received enough cash and checks that once a day someone would have to walk over to the “night deposit” slot and toss a bag in. Our cash handling cost was equal to my salary for the 30 minutes it took me to make that walk, plus the risk that I would get mugged ($0 lost over a few years.) Often the owner would rake out enough to cover his sp…

> Credit cards, on the other hand, can easily run you 30% on a $5 transaction here in the US, due to the unjustifiable fixed + percentage structure. Maybe it’s a little better in Canada. Are you sure it's 30%? Credit card fees are usually in the order of 3% + minimum fixed charge. Stripe is 2.9% + 30 cents. There are some extra charges for manually entered cards, international cards, etc. but even if you max that out…

You’re absolutely right. I was thinking of smaller transactions. It’s “only” 11% for a cup of coffee. For comparison in my high sales tax city the tax rate is 6%, and that funds a huge fraction of our municipal infrastructure

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#276

Post by CamperBob2 » Mon, Jul 01, 2024, 1:37 AM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #253

CamperBob2 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deliberate sleep deprivation is torture. It isn't "non-violent protest." This isn't a matter of opinion.

nonsense. Locking someone in a cell and keeping them awake for the purpose if inflicting suffering is torture. Making noise so that someone in the freedom of their own home has to put ear plugs in is not. conflating them ignores the clear differences and stretches the meaning of the word. You might as well say an ice cream display in the super market is torture.

[flagged]

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#277

Post by adamiscool8 » Mon, Jul 01, 2024, 1:41 AM UTC

throw0101b wrote: post #274

adamiscool8 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“We do not need allies more devoted to order than to justice,” Martin Luther King, Jr.

What justice was the trucker convoy looking for? What injustice were they fighting against? What grave depravity had they long suffered against? You are quoting from "Letter from a Birmingham Jail", which also states: > In any nonviolent campaign there are four basic steps: collection of the facts to determine whether injustices exist; negotiation; self purification; and direct action. * https://www.africa.upenn.edu/…

While that can be your truth, it may be worth re-evaluating because it is not reflecting reality, then:

> In August 1963, Gallup found considerable public opposition to the now-famous civil rights march on Washington in which King delivered his "I Have a Dream" speech. The poll was conducted about two weeks before the march, at which time 71% were familiar with "the proposed mass civil rights rally to be held in Washington, D.C., on Aug. 28." Of those who were familiar, only 23% said they had a favorable view of "the rally"; 42% had an unfavorable view of it (including 7% who predicted violence would occur) and 18% said it wouldn't accomplish anything. [0]

[0] https://news.gallup.com/poll/103828/civil-rights-progress-se...

— or now:

> What is also clear is that sympathy with the movement is no longer at a point where the minority, which has been categorized as being on the fringes, is grossly overshadowed by the majority. A sizeable minority of Canadians (37%) agree (16% strongly/21% somewhat) that while they might not say it publicly, they agree with a lot of what the truck protestors are fighting for [1]

[1] https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/nearly-half-say-they-...

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#278

Post by adamiscool8 » Mon, Jul 01, 2024, 1:43 AM UTC

sbarre wrote: post #270

adamiscool8 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point stands regardless, but it is relatively affluent to it's surroundings here: https://neighbourhoodequity.ca/economic-maps/

Lol what? Point stands regardless? What does that mean? - "Oh my point was proven wrong but I'm going to stick to it anyways? Because fact shmacts?" Your whole argument was that the convoy was shut down because it inconvenienced the wealthy locals.. Which is completely not what happened. It's ok to say you were wrong.

It means you can strike "some of the most" from my comment and the point remains unrebutted.

>The stuff they were protesting was very real, and those measures specifically caused disruption to hundreds of thousands of people's lives and sleep for months on end. The government turning to wartime measures so that privileged Ottawans living in ~~~~ ~~ ~~~ ~~~~ affluent areas around the nation's capital can withstand a few honks for a few weeks is absolutely preposterous.

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#279

Post by rustcleaner » Mon, Jul 01, 2024, 1:48 AM UTC

stavros wrote: post #114

sofixa wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the main reason why card/phone payments are taking over. It isn't some grand conspiracy by banks/shadowy cabals/governments - it's just much more practical than to pay with cash. Also the fact that it costs less to accept card payments only than deal with cash for small places (coffe shops and the like). The correct course of action here is government regulations ensuring an even playing field for payment pro…

How is an even playing field going to help with the fact that you need permission to spend your money?

I would only trust Monero-like tech for that.

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#280

Post by s1artibartfast » Mon, Jul 01, 2024, 1:53 AM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #276

s1artibartfast wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nonsense. Locking someone in a cell and keeping them awake for the purpose if inflicting suffering is torture. Making noise so that someone in the freedom of their own home has to put ear plugs in is not. conflating them ignores the clear differences and stretches the meaning of the word. You might as well say an ice cream display in the super market is torture.

[flagged]

no, the translation is that something can be bad, but not everything bad is literal torture.