Parable of the Sofa • Hacker News Board

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#271

Post by tanepiper » Sun, Jun 02, 2024, 4:33 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #231

atopal wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand where the idea comes from that IKEA sofas fall apart after 5 years. All of their sofas come with a 10 year warranty, even the cheapest ones. Here's one at the $850 price point: https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/uppland-sofa-blekinge-white-s19... Their more expensive ones come with a 25 year warranty and still only cost $2,500: https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/stockholm-sofa-seglora-natural-...

It is a very "limited" warranty: https://www.ikea.com/us/en/files/pdf/40/04/4004a9de/seating_... If the sofa breaks , then sure it's covered. But it explicitly doesn't cover fabric or leather coverings -- and good luck trying to convince them that the foam padding has gone all flat. Whereas in my experience, how long a sofa lasts is determined precisely by how long the coverings and cushions last. (I've never in my l…

No sofa has a 25 year warranty on fabric, that wouldn't make sense - but you can of course by insurance for it and usually most non-IKEA sofa shops will offer you Scotchguard cover usually for 3 to 5 years.

Depending on the Sofa you can or course get one that has IKEA+ which is replaceable covers, which you can't do with most other sofas.

(Disclosure: I work at IKEA, although I only found out the 25 year cover a few weeks ago)

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#272

Post by ghaff » Sun, Jun 02, 2024, 4:35 PM UTC

brewdad wrote: post #263

ghaff wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must have hallucinated that I went to an auto dealer for warranty service last week. Enterprise software companies have consulting and support services. At the consumer level though, most people aren't willing to pay for the cost of the manufacturer or retailer repairing clothing and other relatively low cost items. As in this article, there are local businesses that do such things but it can be really hard to just…

At the consumer level it frequently doesn't make sense to repair an item. My son had a part fail on his luggage last winter. It might be covered under warranty (the manufacturer wouldn't commit until inspecting the product) but the repair would require shipping the suitcase to them and paying for return shipping. It was going to cost about $150 minimum to have it repaired on a piece that is already a decade old and c…

I've had minor clothing repairs/alterations done at a local dry cleaner for a fairly nominal sum. (Maybe $10-15) But if you can't just easily do something yourself, yeah, you tend to be looking at a floor of at least $100 and at least a certain amount of hassle.

Things I might have taken in to be repaired 25 years ago like a laser printer just don't make sense to do so today.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#273

Post by spondylosaurus » Sun, Jun 02, 2024, 4:35 PM UTC

modeless wrote: post #234

spondylosaurus wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IKEA shelves and stuff are cheap (in both senses of the word, generally, although some pieces do hold up surprisingly well), but their couches in particular are somehow both crazy expensive and wildly uncomfortable. I remember trying one in the showroom that felt like a massive hard frame with some sagging cushions tacked on, and it was about a thousand bucks.

A thousand bucks isn't crazy expensive. This guy spent ~$6,000 (inflation adjusted) on this couch he thinks is so great.

It's expensive relative to other couches I've bought that were (1) way more comfortable and (2) way more attractive for a similar or lower price point. In the past I've had $500 couches from Living Spaces that were both cute and felt good to sit on. Better construction too.

$6k is still wild though, lol. I've also never really cared for leather couches, so spending that much on one is unthinkable to me, but maybe leather is just more expensive than I realized...?

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#274

Post by ric2b » Sun, Jun 02, 2024, 4:43 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #231

atopal wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand where the idea comes from that IKEA sofas fall apart after 5 years. All of their sofas come with a 10 year warranty, even the cheapest ones. Here's one at the $850 price point: https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/uppland-sofa-blekinge-white-s19... Their more expensive ones come with a 25 year warranty and still only cost $2,500: https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/stockholm-sofa-seglora-natural-...

It is a very "limited" warranty: https://www.ikea.com/us/en/files/pdf/40/04/4004a9de/seating_... If the sofa breaks , then sure it's covered. But it explicitly doesn't cover fabric or leather coverings -- and good luck trying to convince them that the foam padding has gone all flat. Whereas in my experience, how long a sofa lasts is determined precisely by how long the coverings and cushions last. (I've never in my l…

The stuff that isn't covered is the stuff that will naturally wear out with use and can be easily replaced, so I don't see the problem.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#275

Post by timbray » Sun, Jun 02, 2024, 4:46 PM UTC

Simon_ORourke wrote: post #20

The irony being that this very site's boosting of that store, in a modern web-driven sense, is likely to see all sorts of increased business for said store. Not that it's a bad thing, I'd like to see them getting all business they can handle. But there's a spectrum between the lifestyle capitalism stores like this and the VC-backed unicorns.

That crossed my mind when I saw the piece show up on HN. But I think they're already running more or less at capacity.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#276

Post by fbdab103 » Sun, Jun 02, 2024, 4:47 PM UTC

seer wrote: post #247

istultus wrote: post #171

Let me posit an ad-hoc theory built on our anchoring bias in regards to price and our inability to think in terms of inflation/hyperbolic discounting: tl;dr - Once a cheap alternative is on the market, us frugal folks can't imagine paying for what was once the default and only option, distorting our understanding of what constitutes good quality * He says buying a new sofa of the same quality today would cost upwards…

I don't know why HN has the idea that IKEA is cheap trash - yes some of the things in their catalog are not very high quality, but they seem to be very consistent. But more importantly (for me), because they have such a huge catalog, and a propensity to optimise, they ended up with a supremely hackable furniture - everything fits together with everything else, whenever you want to build something - there are tons of…

The aspect of Ikea furniture I like - it is typically stylish. To get an equivalent look somewhere else usually invokes large price increases for seemingly no change in quality.

It is definitely not the best quality, but I have moved several Ikea pieces over the years without much ill effects. Would I like to upgrade to some "adult" furniture one day? Maybe, but I fear much of it is like other designer goods - identical crap construction with a reputable label stitched on the front.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#277

Post by izacus » Sun, Jun 02, 2024, 4:54 PM UTC

brewdad wrote: post #266

GeneralMaximus wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... either people accept the fact that some neighbourhoods are served worse than others, or the take the car and make the travel up to the nice asian shop they read about on the internet, because that’s apparently worth it. What's better: having to do a few minutes of research to find a good sofa repair shop in your city or having to buy a new sofa every 5 years? Further: what's better for you personally, and what'…

When the sofa refurbisher can only handle 100 sofas a year, the 101st customer doesn't have any where to go. Perhaps the market will then lead a second refurbisher to set up shop but that only moves the constraint somewhere else in the supply chain. By its very nature, these small shops can never serve "everyone" the way the big box retailers and flat pack builders can. It's not really a solution to the problem at ha…

Aren't those "constrants" and having people set up shop to solve them literally the most important and critical basic block of our western economies and are critical for social wellbeing? Why do you keep trying to paint this as a negative in response to essentially command economy the monopolies create?

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#278

Post by wanderingstan » Sun, Jun 02, 2024, 5:07 PM UTC

hansvm wrote: post #225

photon_lines wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'The point of the article is that the big business model is "continued growth", which depends on constantly increasing sales, which means products necessarily get shittier so that they must be replaced more frequently.' - Sorry to interject here, but this is extremely wrong and nowhere did I find this take-away from the posted article. There are massive businesses that do sell extremely high-quality products - in fac…

The problem isn't just short-term thinking. You alluded to another point yourself: > Looks great on the outside Consumers aren't often equipped to evaluate quality, partly due to skill issues, partly because the corners are cut in places which are hard to spot before purchase. Price doesn't work as a discriminating factor (except to filter out a portion of the worst inventory) because of the number of brands explicit…

This is a key factor: businesses have learned to “optimize” by cutting corners wherever people can’t perceive the deficit. The product just has to last long enough.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#279

Post by 082349872349872 » Sun, Jun 02, 2024, 5:08 PM UTC

selimthegrim wrote: post #254

selimthegrim wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious minds want to know of where you speak…

If it’s where I think, my brother already lives there but the immigration process is formidable.

(I've edited the original post; could easily be where you think)

The process became much easier for our neighbours while I've been here, which, being zero-sum for available slots, is to say it became more formidable for the Old Country. As of today, I wouldn't be surprised if it's easier to get in from Tunisia than from Texas.

It could be tougher; no one ever asked me if I could make a roux :-)

EDIT: I couldn't rapidly find GDP splits by firm size, but an easy comparison is that ~3/4 of all employees work for SMEs here, as opposed to under 1/2 for the Old Country. (Germany's figures are similar, and they claim over half their GDP comes from SMEs.)

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#280

Post by izacus » Sun, Jun 02, 2024, 5:09 PM UTC

solidasparagus wrote: post #64

lordnacho wrote: post #29

This is something that has bothered me for a while. When we're discussing capitalism, people seem to get it in their head that it's either what we have now, or you can fuck off to North Korea. How I would characterize my ideal economy is one where the feedback loop works: people can make reasonable guesses about what a product is, how long it will work for, and what its cost is. They can adjust their purchases accord…

That leaves a market gap and then a better company can fill it, unlike centralized economies. Is that happening? I would say yes, at least in some cases. High-quality, direct-to-consumer brands are great. I rely on purchasing guides for many of my buys and those point me to brands whose primary attribute is quality (or cost effectiveness) instead of marketing or historic adoption. That's great for me and great for th…

With increasing size of corporations (which buyout competition to create market monopolies) the market economy is turning into a centralized economy, isn't it?

Just instead of an entity called "political party" it's being directed by board of directors of said corporations. And they're very effective at lobbying further to decrease chances of market competition as well.

So the system you're describing is not actually happening to the extent we need in the wild, we're drifting away from market economies to centralized economies.