Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage • Hacker News Board

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#271

Post by WheatMillington » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:21 PM UTC

foxyv wrote: post #177

It takes significantly less materials to build a multi-dwelling apartment/condo/townhouse structure than a single family home. In addition, the required square footage per person drops by huge amounts when people can walk to nearby community centers, restaurants, kitchens, theaters, and bars. We are building massive 3-4k sq. ft. homes for families of four because all of their food, entertainment, and social needs are…

What a dystopic vision, living in 50sqm pods and having our basic needs attended to by market participants, eschewing all self-reliance.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#272

Post by WheatMillington » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:23 PM UTC

foxyv wrote: post #248

sandworm101 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Everyone has their own bar, restaurant, theatre, and community center. As opposed to all the "urban lifestyle" people who readily offload their basic needs onto others. Some people are happy cooking their own basic foods. Others want them to be prepared, and their dished cleaned, by a team. Some people are happy with a beer fridge. Others want to go to a bar and pay a young person to smile and flirt while concocti…

I'm not saying we should ban 4000 sq.ft. detached homes on large sprawling lots. They just shouldn't be the ONLY type of home being built. Give people options so they can choose. In fact, if you want to have that beautiful home surrounded by nature and not suburban cookie cutter houses, then it's also in your interest to see that cities stay in the cities. Too many orchards and farms have been demolished to build mis…

>They just shouldn't be the ONLY type of home being built

They're not, as evidenced by the literally millions of apartments in existence.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#273

Post by scoofy » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:23 PM UTC

foxyv wrote: post #177

It takes significantly less materials to build a multi-dwelling apartment/condo/townhouse structure than a single family home. In addition, the required square footage per person drops by huge amounts when people can walk to nearby community centers, restaurants, kitchens, theaters, and bars. We are building massive 3-4k sq. ft. homes for families of four because all of their food, entertainment, and social needs are…

I find it amusing that many folks here are ready to clap back at this comment about how "but people want single family homes" as if that weren't why we are in a housing crisis. Yes... people want single family homes, it's just not feasible to put 3M people into single family homes in a metro area without absorbing an unsustainable amount of costs.

Here we are talking literally the cost of construction, but there is also the cost of infrastructure, and the cost of transport. The reason we have a housing crisis is because as much as we all love single family homes, they aren't universalizable. If everyone were to live in a single family home, then after the transportation infrastructure reaches capacity, there is a cascade of issues that leads a region becoming totally unaffordable and ultimately unsustainable.

I would recommend the Strong Towns organization for anyone more interested in the interaction between long-term affordability issues and surburban infrastructure problems: https://www.strongtowns.org

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#274

Post by foxyv » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:23 PM UTC

akira2501 wrote: post #224

stronglikedan wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone likes to share a wall. I'm glad there are options, since I'm one of them. I can walk from my single family home to nearby community centers, restaurants, kitchens, theaters, and bars in 15 minutes. Not everyone likes to be that close to that stuff, and that's okay. I'm glad we have options, since I'm not one of them. There's plenty of space to build new homes of all types. It's an entitlement crisis.

Every time I see a giant timber framed apartment building being constructed I'm exceptionally glad that I don't have to consider living inside of it. It's fine for your early 30s, but if you hope to be part of the "professional class" then that form of living takes it's toll exceptionally quickly.

American multi-family dwellings are constructed so poorly compared to other countries. You should not be able to hear your neighbors in a modern apartment building or hotel. Unfortunately since building permits and zoning restrictions are so tight, many MFD owning/renting Americans are living in buildings that are over 50 years old.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#275

Post by tpmoney » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:23 PM UTC

foxyv wrote: post #248

sandworm101 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Everyone has their own bar, restaurant, theatre, and community center. As opposed to all the "urban lifestyle" people who readily offload their basic needs onto others. Some people are happy cooking their own basic foods. Others want them to be prepared, and their dished cleaned, by a team. Some people are happy with a beer fridge. Others want to go to a bar and pay a young person to smile and flirt while concocti…

I'm not saying we should ban 4000 sq.ft. detached homes on large sprawling lots. They just shouldn't be the ONLY type of home being built. Give people options so they can choose. In fact, if you want to have that beautiful home surrounded by nature and not suburban cookie cutter houses, then it's also in your interest to see that cities stay in the cities. Too many orchards and farms have been demolished to build mis…

Where do you live that 4k sqft homes are the only new construction? I live in a major metro area and sure in the outskirts and suburbs there’s plenty of McMansion developments, but there’s also a whole host of new townhomes and apartments. And the entire downtown is practically being rebuilt into massive multi story apartments. And this is hardly the center of YIMBY land.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#276

Post by giantg2 » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:23 PM UTC

slothtrop wrote: post #129

shagie wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homelessness in San Francisco doesn't kill you from the elements in January or July. A homeless person in Minneapolis or Chicago in January may die from the elements on an excessively cold night. A homeless person in Arizona in July can also die from it being too hot. It's rarely ever too hot or too cold in costal California cities.

> Homelessness in San Francisco doesn't kill you from the elements in January or July. This would be equally true of other large cities in the southern half (including July for many), and none of them have anywhere near the same rate. Notwithstanding, northern cities have indoor shelters and if the cold mattered that much, the rates would be quite small, but they're not. In expensive cities like NY, homelessness rate…

"Or to put it another way, while 33% of the homeless population suffers from mental illness, nearly 100% of the homeless population can’t afford housing. 100% is a much bigger number than 33%. Which is why mental health, while a factor in homelessness, cannot possibly or statistically be a lead factor."

The quality of the analysis and arguments are terrible. We can just ignore factors if they don't explain everything? And why is it missing a section on the biggest correlating factor - lack of employment? The severe mental health and substance abuse (with other factors like criminal records) greatly impact one's ability to get any job. Affordability is a moot point for people in these categories as without a job, you can't afford anything. It would be better to do more granular analysis on those who are employed but homeless. That is likely to be the marginal diffence explained in the housing cost section.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#277

Post by gertlex » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:23 PM UTC

creer wrote: post #258

Much of the conversation here derails the original post: we desperately need less expensive construction processes (overall, including permitting etc). Even when the local community makes it not-worthwhile to build affordable housing.

Not sure the article ("original post") makes that claim either. It just asserts that mass timber is (probably) not in fact cheaper, and has not been/is not going to accelerate building of more housing. A solution, i.e. what "we desperately need", is not covered in the article.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#278

Post by alistairSH » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:23 PM UTC

_uhtu wrote: post #268

foxyv wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying we should ban 4000 sq.ft. detached homes on large sprawling lots. They just shouldn't be the ONLY type of home being built. Give people options so they can choose. In fact, if you want to have that beautiful home surrounded by nature and not suburban cookie cutter houses, then it's also in your interest to see that cities stay in the cities. Too many orchards and farms have been demolished to build mis…

Exactly this. People act like it's a "big government takeover" trying to make multi-family housing against peoples wishes. The real fact is it's the exact opposite. "Big government" policies were created forcing people to only build single family homes on massive lots. Current proposals are to remove those regulations, and ironically people see it as the government coming for them.

When a large chunk of the middle-class is counting on their home value to facilitate retirement, they're rightfully concerned about urbanization of their neighborhood.

I personally believe they're mostly wrong - urbanization probably won't harm home values. And done well, might improve the values even more.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#279

Post by cpursley » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:23 PM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #58

cpursley wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not like the UK and US social housing / projects. They need to be in master planned, well thought out and connected communities.

> But not like the UK The UK's social housing scheme was/is a stonking success, right up until about 1980. it completely reset the minimum standard of housing from slums to actually decent. It wasn't all a success, skelmersdale and thamesmede sucked balls. The problem with the uk's social housing came as follows: 1) the change from needing a job to have a council house to being a dumping ground for troubled families…

I don't know the UK situation in much depth but one of the things I read was how they were disconnected from the rest of the community (socially, services, transport, etc).

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#280

Post by jajko » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:24 PM UTC

comte7092 wrote: post #240

sandworm101 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Everyone has their own bar, restaurant, theatre, and community center. As opposed to all the "urban lifestyle" people who readily offload their basic needs onto others. Some people are happy cooking their own basic foods. Others want them to be prepared, and their dished cleaned, by a team. Some people are happy with a beer fridge. Others want to go to a bar and pay a young person to smile and flirt while concocti…

I think the point is that these giant houses provide a lot more than a “modicum” of self sufficiency. I live in an apartment and cook plenty, for example.

People turn to things like viewing world only in extremes, if it subconsiously validates their viewpoints or life choices. We all fall into this trap to certain extent.

Another case point - lived my whole life in apartments (thats how much of Europe runs), and preferred to buy another one instead of almost similarly-sized house. And I like cooking a lot and currently getting a maybe bit too much into various cuisines via youtube.

Once you grok few basic concepts and rules its amazing how much one can achieve with little and some skills. Plus its creativity to the max, which everybody appreciates too. Also improves your health (better ingredients, you can make stuff with less sugar/fat).

Bad thing is, your average restaurant wont feel that fancy anymore.